From 107 to 128

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fabiostar
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by fabiostar »

freeridenick wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:47 pm Back on wheels after a lot of head scratching and studying of parts diagrams. I found a set of forks that should have been identical but the compression adjuster was different. On closer inspection the needle seems the same but on the silver forks the adjuster comes out and the needle is sticking out the end. On my broken, brown forks the needle is in a housing the includes all the oil ways.
_20210311_074933.JPG

Checking the sliders, gliders and internals confirmed the sliders should just swap over but the adjuster was bother. Long story short, a couple of conversations with Roger and some more research left me confidant all was good. So having split both sets of forks twice I'm now pretty handy with rebuilds and I've a spares or repair set of brown ones for sale.

All I need now is to seal the clutch cover and fill it with fluids before it goes to Junction 33 for set up on Thursday.

There are still a few odd jobs after that, like brake lines and left grip, but all easy stuff. Fingers crossed.
DSC_6372.JPG



looking good nick. cant wait to hear what the dyno says :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

i have front end envy, just saying :lol: :lol:
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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freeridenick
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by freeridenick »

I went to button up the axle today and I had a 'this doesn't feel right moment' so stopped and pulled the pinch bolts out. There was only about 5mm of thread engagement. It turns out the bolts are 10mm too short.

I knew the axle bolt was too short, cut down by a previous owner so that only a handful of threads were engaged, but I didn't think about the pinch bolts as they only need loosening. 8O

New bolts on order.
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lloydie
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by lloydie »

Lucky you stopped when you did .
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sirch345
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by sirch345 »

lloydie wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:24 pm Lucky you stopped when you did .
+1 :thumbup:

Chris.
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freeridenick
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by freeridenick »

The trip to Junction 33 turned out to be a thoroughly annoying setback. Several small mishaps before it even got on the dyno set the tone and should have been in indicator of things to come. The bike has a massively over-rich problem from around 4k to over 6k and Andy can't sort it with the carbs. His view is that it's something in the induction that's causing a 'blockage' which is stopping air entering. Eventually this clears when the revs have got past it but I'm stumped as to what the problem could be. Roger was there too and he's got no idea either.

The A/F chart is below and the one from my old engine as a comparison. I've written everything I can remember from the runs plus the differences between my old, fit, engine and this new one. Answers and suggestions on a postcard please to:
Thoroughly despondent,
c/o anyone looking to buy a few Storms in bits,
at hunting ebay for local bikes that just run,
next to "I'm too old for this sh1t".

The top green line is as received and it's mega lean at the top end plus rich on the pilots. Blocking the main air relief circuit made that better but the rich condition was horrific (pink). The three other, overlapping lines, are with smaller pilots, larger mains, plus a trial with a more restrictive air filter. The larger mains sorted the lean top end but made the richness in midrange worse, so there was no point going bigger to get the top end right. At best it made 72 ft-lbs of torque and less than 120bhp. Way off my old engine and what Roger and I were expecting from this engine.

Engine differences :
Stg 2 Mori cams on the new one vs stg 1 Yoshi on the old one
Std valves vs +1mm inlet and +0.5mm outlet
Mori pistons vs JE
Mori carbs and needles vs stock cards with Dnyojet needles
Mori vleocity stacks vs two short stock ones
Air box and carbs the same exhaust

I know all these changes add up but I can't see how they have made such a huge difference when Roger has had good results with this sort of build before. All I can think of is that the valve timing is off, but that surely wouldn't make such a huge difference without the engine eating itself. Another thought is that the choke circuit on my carbs is blocked off but could be open. That, in my head, would give something like this but we didn't explore it on the day as I thought the choke circuit was deleted on these. Roger has confirmed choke was an option so I'm going to check tomorrow but if it's blocked I've no idea what to do other than stripping and checking everything. Which I can't face right now and I've a nasty opposition to throwing good money after bad.
New engine
_20210321_100721[1].JPG
Old engine
_20210321_101050[1].JPG
Last edited by freeridenick on Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sirch345
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by sirch345 »

I'm sorry to hear of your problem(s) Nick, how frustrating, and annoying I'm sure.

I was wondering how it performed out on the road, but I'm now thinking you didn't ride the bike to the Dyno centre :?:

What did you set the TPS at :?: and may be worth testing it to make sure it's working :eh:

Chris.
mik_str
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by mik_str »

freeridenick wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:29 am The trip to Junction 33 turned out to be a thoroughly annoying setback. Several small mishaps before it even got on the dyno set the tone and should have been in indicator of things to come. The bike has a massively over-rich problem from around 4k to over 6k and Andy can't sort it with the carbs. His view is that it's something in the induction that's causing a 'blockage' which is stopping air entering. Eventually this clears when the revs have got past it but I'm stumped as to what the problem could be. Roger was there too and he's got no idea either.

The A/F chart is below and the one from my old engine as a comparison. I've written everything I can remember from the runs plus the differences between my old, fit, engine and this new one. Answers and suggestions on a postcard please to:
Thoroughly despondent,
c/o anyone looking to buy a few Storms in bits,
at hunting ebay for local bikes that just run,
next to "I'm too old for this sh1t".

The top green line is as received and it's mega lean at the top end plus rich on the pilots. Blocking the main air relief circuit made that better but the rich condition was horrific (pink). The three other, overlapping lines, are with smaller pilots, larger mains, plus a trial with a more restrictive air filter. The larger mains sorted the lean top end but made the richness in midrange worse, so there was no point going bigger to get the top end right. At best it made 72 ft-lbs of torque and less than 120bhp. Way off my old engine and what Roger and I were expecting from this engine.

Engine differences :
Stg 2 Mori cams on the new one vs stg 1 Yoshi on the old one
Std valves vs +1mm inlet and +0.5mm outlet
Mori pistons vs JE
Mori carbs and needles vs stock cards with Dnyojet needles
Mori vleocity stacks vs two short stock ones
Air box and carbs the same exhaust

I know all these changes add up but I can't see how they have made such a huge difference when Roger has had good results with this sort of build before. All I can think of is that the valve timing is off, but that surely wouldn't make such a huge difference without the engine eating itself. Another thought is that the choke circuit on my carbs is blocked off but could be open. That, in my head, would give something like this but we didn't explore it on the day as I thought the choke circuit was deleted on these. Roger has confirmed choke was an option so I'm going to check tomorrow but if it's blocked I've no idea what to do other than stripping and checking everything. Which I can't face right now and I've a nasty opposition to throwing good money after bad.
New engine
_20210321_100721[1].JPG

Old engine
_20210321_101050[1].JPG
sorry to read this. Hope you figure it out.
99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
tony.mon
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by tony.mon »

A spare set of carbs would be a short cut to identifying the problem.
Alternatively, an ecu swap.
Could this be an advance timing issue?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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AMCQ46
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by AMCQ46 »

sounds ike a depressing nightmare!!

same as Tony, my next test would be to swap carbs
AMcQ
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freeridenick
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by freeridenick »

Thanks for the advice guys. I've checked the choke on the Mori carbs as these are blocked off with the needles and a cap, so it's not that. I've fitted my old carbs and airbox that worked well with the old engine. I've also discovered there's a Dyno operator in my town so I'll be calling them and working out what they can do and when. First step will be checking the old carbs have the same issue.

It could be an ignition problem, but it's the same ECU and ignitor box as before. I have spares somewhere, so will dig it out. If it's an advance problem then I'll need a programmable ECU and I'm not sure I have the energy for that. I know the HRC box had different timing around this rpm range, and also at the top end.

TPS was set to 500 ohms when I fitted them and checking them just now they are 450 ohms. I'm not sure this would cause such a big problem.

One thing that occurred to me today was the gap between the velocity stacks and the carb throat. Where the stock stacks would sit flush with the step in the carbs (Mori ones fit flush too when mounted direct to the carbs), fitting the Mori ones inside the airbox leaves a gap of about 5mm. Could this create enough air turbulence at certain rpm to effectively block the air flow? That could create the rich condition. Andy reckoned it was more likely a back pressure wave that was causing a plume of mixture to form over the carbs which then rushes in causing the richness. The sort of thing a balance pipe in the exhaust would cure so I'm probably clutching at straws. The counter to this is that the exhaust is the same as the one on the old engine and Roger has had success with stg2 builds and street exhaust. Finding a stg2 exhaust is virtually impossible and getting one made would be an expensive shot in the dark right now. I'd need to be certain it would work.
tony.mon
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by tony.mon »

I don't think a 5mm gap in the inlet tract would cause this, but it would be easy to make a plastic ring to fill the gap to check.
450 ohms is not the cause, this just adjusts the point at which the ignition advance curve operates- unless there's something in your ignition box map that says otherwise.
Can you plug it in and examine the advance curve?

The other thing might be carb vacuum. If one carb isn't getting enough vacuum to fully open the slide until higher revs it might explain this.
Diaphragm perhaps? Or split vac line?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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freeridenick
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by freeridenick »

Lift holes, what about lift holes? Rereading the carb tuning guide reminded me that the HRC slides only used one hole. The ones with the Mori carbs had three, so I plugged one, but would the Mori stacks allow a much greater vacuum than stock? Enough to lift the slides too early and cause a rich condition just off the pilots and into where the needle operates? Therefore I need to plug one more hole and try that?

The Mori needles are much fatter than the DJ and FP ones with a much steeper taper. They have a longer straight section too. Presumably to stop this midrange richness.

I checked the diagrams when I rebuilt the carbs Tony but will check again. When you say vac lines do you mean from the air cut off valve to the small metal tube?
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fabiostar
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by fabiostar »

jesus i feel your pain nick. as for stacks.when i was trying to pull my hair out with mine i tried honda,mori and those aussie stacks all in one day and the problem wouldnt go away, i even tried mine with no stacks and that didnt show much difference either.
mine was hitting a spluttery wall in the mid range 5/6k which in my case didnt show up to bad on the dyno but made riding the bike impossible but it was rich in that range.

have you tried it with your old carbs? regardless of engine tune the mori carbs seem to have been the big change from one to the other engine.

i know your frame has restricted excess round the headstock, as in airflow but iv ridden that frame with the motor i now have in dori and it didnt have to problems you are having.
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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fabiostar
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by fabiostar »

fabiostar wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:11 pm jesus i feel your pain nick. as for stacks.when i was trying to pull my hair out with mine i tried honda,mori and those aussie stacks all in one day and the problem wouldnt go away, i even tried mine with no stacks and that didnt show much difference either.
mine was hitting a spluttery wall in the mid range 5/6k which in my case didnt show up to bad on the dyno but made riding the bike impossible but it was rich in that range.

have you tried it with your old carbs? regardless of engine tune the mori carbs seem to have been the big change from one to the other engine.

i know your frame has restricted excess round the headstock, as in airflow but iv ridden that frame with the motor i now have in dori and it didnt have the problems you are having.

one other leftfield problem i had way back with my original engine which took a bit of finding was my ecu box was going bad and caused all sorts of runing and misfires at 6k.changed the ecu and away it went clean as. :thumbup:
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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gilson
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Re: From 107 to 128

Post by gilson »

I know very little about fuelling and this might be the most stupid post but I was reading this old post and in point 2 it mentions float height causing fuelling issues around the 4k/5k mark.

I'm embarrassed to even mention it as its probably completely irrelevant considering that you have different cars etc. Just trying to help.

I'm sure you'll sort it in the end.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app

Carb Tuning guide (setting up a Dynojet or Factory Pro kit)
No bike (yet).
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