Europe - In or Out?

[redpig]

It's a bit like how we elect a government.
We choose the least reprehensible group of liars, then sit back and watch them ride the gravy train.

Put on yer nosegay and bring out yer dead

[Demonic69]

I've a question for the Stay-ers (Aside from "why do you insist on on negative brands for those who want out?")
Juncker has been open in his derision of the UK, stating that we're a minor player and have no voice, regardless of being the 5th largest economy in the world.
The UK used their legally granted Veto to block Juncker's appointment and were ignored, in fact we've been ignored every single time we've used our right to Veto.
the EU are now looking to change their laws to stop any one country having the right to Veto.
So, if we stay in, what makes you sure that we'll have any voice at all in the ever-changing EU, especially after Cameron's botched negotiations?

We trade in the red with Europe, in the black with the rest of our global trade partners. The EU dictates who we can trade with and when we can seek trade agreements, and for what.
Out of the EU we can choose our trade partners and negotiate the best prices, one of the benefits of being a large economy and net importer is that people actually WANT our money and will bid for our business, that's just how it works. The Myths around massive price hikes are just ridiculous.
Add to that that TTIP would actually hurt the UK in the EU and that it's ready to fall on it's butt as it is and we're already in a position to negotiate a better deal with the US without the EU. Even better for a net importer is that the US are wanting to "Buy American", which is what's causing the issue with TTIP and the EU, and that's pretty much what we'd be doing with our own agreement.
Outside the EU we will actually import less, being able to invest more in manufacturing and producing our own goods instead of being forced to buy from the EU and give away rights to things like Fish and power generation.

I'm not really going to get into immigration, I don't think anyone who wants to leave Europe really wants to send all the hard-working immigrants home (nobody sane that is) and the EU, specifically the Europeans, don't want to lose the money generated from ex-pats living abroad either. While the figures are fudged for whatever agenda is being pushed it's hard to say that non-working immigrants aren't a strain on the economy, and that's what we'd have more control over outside the EU.

Just my 3P, maybe I should have picked another topic for my 2nd post eh

Cheers

[StormingHonda]

Apparently, according to storminghonda, I ( and other expats) shouldn't have a say in the EU referendum because I live elsewhere in the EU. Just the sort of xenophobic cr*p I was pointing out. As we still own two houses in the UK, I'm in receipt of a UK occupational pension, pay UK income tax and have four kids in the UK whose future we worry about, I'd say we have as much right to have a say in the future of the UK as anyone.

Its very simple.

You live in France, that is your country residence, no vote should be giving to you.

Your four children who I assume are grown up live in the UK, they should and will get a vote.

Maybe we should give every foreign national who has lived, or owns a property in the UK and pays or has paid taxes in this country a vote?.

And I wonder how they would vote, I bet you would vote to leave because that would be very fair on the people who actually RESIDE in the British isle.

I fail to see Xenophobia. No cheap insults please.

[Demonic69]

Apparently, according to storminghonda, I ( and other expats) shouldn't have a say in the EU referendum because I live elsewhere in the EU. Just the sort of xenophobic cr*p I was pointing out. As we still own two houses in the UK, I'm in receipt of a UK occupational pension, pay UK income tax and have four kids in the UK whose future we worry about, I'd say we have as much right to have a say in the future of the UK as anyone.

He can't be Xenophobic towards you, you're FROM the UK but LIVE in France. It's a common mistake Immigrants make

[StormingHonda]

You see here is the problem, when someone voices an opinion on Europe people automatically assume you are a racist, xenophobic bigot.

20 years ago I was all for Europe, and in some way I still am, but its just not turning out how I thought it was. its just seems to me its run by a hand picked puppet governance who are told by the Germans what to do.

My vision of Europe was to have all countries the same.

The same labour laws, the same trading laws, the same welfare laws, the same house pricing, the same currency, where each country play by the same rules and have the same living standards as its neighbors, an elected government represented by all countries where all governments are abolished except the one European government.

I even believe there should be a single European army.

English should be the common language used, and I am not talking about Anglo Saxon English I am talking about the Euro modern English, like it or not the language we speak is made up of all the British isle tongues and is mixed with most other European languages. It is in a sense only English by title.

We should all drive on the same side of the road and all use KMPH or MPH, not both.


However this has not happened, and doesn't look like its ever going to happen, Europe is mash of countries all trying to be the top dog and blaming each other for its ineffectiveness, cutting another countries throat to get companies to invest in them rather than the other.

I am not living in the past as a little Englander, but I see Europe still being stuck in its infancy and never growing up.

As for letting other countries join the party, Europe seems happy to let the scales get tipped and to fudge the books to allow Eastern block countries in to make up the numbers, who will whip the ass out of other European countries because of their much lower wages, labour laws and living expectations.

This is why I want out.

[Mav617]

To my mind, we joined a Common Market, we didn't sign up to be part of a Federal European State.

[StormingHonda]

To my mind, we joined a Common Market, we didn't sign up to be part of a Federal European State.

100% but the politicians knew best and done it for us

but for all the posturing of how good it was going to be, you just have fractured countries in a loose alliance of cloak and daggers.

[rollingthunderx2]

George Bevan has the answers here, well worth a read for the real facts, IMHO.
Alright, you filthy animals. I don't normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain't an election, it's a referendum so go sh1t yourself, and b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I'll feel like I've done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I've done a veritable wombles of research and I don't want all my hard work going to waste.

So, I'll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with David 'PigFellatio' Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here's why.

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. "How much", you're (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can't be a tw@ and say 'you're making that up!' and froth at the mouth like a rabid Hippo.

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are "14 Reasons Why We Shouldn't Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won't Believe #8!":
1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world's markets by value (in other words, the EU's combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world's, and we can tap into it whenever the wombles we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]
2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn't impale him/herself on a shittily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]
3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]
4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]
5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] wombles yeah, cheap things!
6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]
7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it's in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it's chicken. It wasn't always chicken, though). [9]
The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don't know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game 'Monopoly' and see how many friends you have left when you win.
9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]
10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how wombles great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you've ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you'll understand what I'm saying.
11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I'd also like to point out that it's some of these same human rights that David 'PorkTwatter' Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]
12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]
13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I sh1t you not). [16]
14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]

SOURCES:
[1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/…/eu-business-fa ... s-about-…/
[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ME ... 080_en.htm
[3] http://ec.europa.eu/…/general_product_s ... dex_en.htm
[4] https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/…/european- ... and-inve…/
[5] http://ec.europa.eu/environme…/…/projec ... /index.cfm…
[6] https://www.theguardian.com/…/europe-ab ... bile-phone…
[7] http://europa.eu/…/citizens/travel/pass ... dex_en.htm
[8] http://www.theguardian.com/…/england-be ... ing-waters…
[9] http://ec.europa.eu/…/la…/labelling_leg ... dex_en.htm
[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w…/European_ ... tition_law (I know I'm not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but wombles YOU I'm not in uni anymore, I'll do what I like).
[11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage…
[12] http://ec.europa.eu/…/borders-and-…/vis ... dex_en.htm
[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/…/European_C ... on_Human_R…
[14] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/David-Came ... to-scrap-t…
[15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm
[16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html
[17] The Second World War, wombles. Read a history book.
[18] The Cold War, wombles. Read a history book.

And now, let's take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can't find a single reputable study that suggests we'd be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I've looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I've found are what I'm going to term 'the trade argument' and 'the immigration argument'.

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of 'amicable divorce' where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of 'married couple' and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren't met. Canada's CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger's party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I'm sure you'll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I've taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there's a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a shitstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you're effectively handing control of our country over to David 'HideTheSausageLiterally' Cameron, don't you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole 'visa-free work and travel' thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it's espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I'd refer you to point no. 9 above; we're safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the 'stealing our jobs' fear; while it's true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we've been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn't happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn't trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I'd be willing to wager that you don't, and I'll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They're either starting their own businesses (in which case they're actually creating jobs), or they're skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren't enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they're unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don't want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work shitty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don't worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're sh1t at your job.

If you've made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You're nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive cuntstacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That's right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don't gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

In conclusion: we're in a really great position right now. We're part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn't leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely 'better together' rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

tl;dr version: Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: thank you to everybody who made me internet famous for the day. You're all sweethearts. If you'd like to read more of my filth-ridden political thoughts, please tune in to my new blog.

https://glwtf.net

[Mav617]

Good post, thanks. Still voting out though.

[Demonic69]

I thank God that the EU came swooping in and stopped the rampant raping and pillaging, mistreatment of workers, and child-poisoning that was so prevalent after we either beat or saved the majority of them in multiple wars and battles. Hurrah for the EU, we'd have never become civilised without them!

[SmileyVTR]

Good post. I've been on the fence, wanting fact not political scare-mongering. But I also truly agree that the only correct big picture decision is to stay. This isn't 1945.

[MacV2]

I'm deff voting out after reading this...

http://newsthump.com/2016/05/23/transyl ... k-by-2020/

[StormingHonda]

Rolling thunder without trailing through your post bit by bit. I'm sure your find we were doing well for hundreds of years before we joined the EU, and your also find that most of the laws were set before Europe before the many agreements on human rights and by way of unions, through wars and the workers union fighting for the rights of the common worker.

okay some of it I will give you but lets be honest even these could have been set by ourselves,

[Wicky]

I'm sure your find we were doing well for hundreds of years before we joined the EU

Funnily enough reading up on local history

In 1565 Queen Elizabeth allowed refugees from Holland to come to Colchester (in fact Colchester requested that they come), where they made bays, a kind of cloth. By 1575 at least 500 Dutch settlers had come to Colchester. The area north of the High Street became known as the Dutch quarter. They significantly boosted the economy, set up their own churches, and provided alms for the town's poor.

In 1648 Following the English Civil War The people of Colchester were also forced to pay a fine of 12,000 pounds (a very large sum in those days) as restitutions for the Siege of Colchester. At least half of it was paid by the Dutch population and is indicatitive of their contribution to the local economy.

At the end of the 17th century a travel writer, Celia Fiennes described the town: 'Colchester is a large town. You enter the town by a gate. There are 4 in all. There is a large street which runs a great length down to the bridge, its nearly a mile long. Through the middle of it runs another broad street nearly the same length in which is the Market Cross and Town Hall and a long building, like stalls, on which they lay their bays, exposed for sale. Great quantities are made here and sent in bales to London. The whole town is employed in spinning, weaving, washing, drying and dressing their bays in which they seem very industrious. The town looks a thriving place judging by the substantial houses. It has well paved streets, which are broad enough for 2 coaches to go abreast'.

Funny ol' thing history...

[VTRDark]

rollingthunderx is back too. OMG.

I've not read through the whole thread so apologies if this has been covered but some little info on the TTIP that may sway some decisions.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... trade-deal

Then there is this that is worth a listen.
http://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/joseph- ... ssia-27672

Now I am not for or against the EU. I really can't decide and don't think what we say makes a hell of a difference to the vote either way. Politicians do what they want and I'm sure they will control the media into brainwashing us and sway the vote in the direction they have planned. And if that don't work they will just fiddle the numbers.

If we leave the EU there is a good chance that the TTIP will go ahead for us and we will keep the ties with US. Now you know what that means don't you. There's a good possibility we will end up going to war with Europe in the long run in this big game of Risk (remember the board game) as the powers to be in the world find they place and reposition themselves. Especially if Europe gains alliance with Russia. This will be long after Trump gets assassinated and they put the Clintons (new world order) back into power.

Steven D Kelley, a former CIA/NSA contractor, told Press TV in March that the entire US establishment is plotting to defeat Trump, because the maverick billionaire poses a threat to the New World Order.

He added that Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton “is the favorite of the New World Order.

http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/05/05/464 ... elligence/

TTIP will be a really bad thing and opens the doors to more genetic foods, no strict regulated pharma's etc. Not to mention even less privacy, especially online. You can say goodbye to freedom of speech. Watch out they will send their robot dogs over here next. It's not us that have to worry so much, but think about the kids future as the US plans to take over the world and have one new world order. We have a few more wars to go through first before they get there. They have almost got the middle East. They are already moving in on the Russians. Weapons in the Eukraine, it will be bases next, then there are bases in Afgan. They have to wipe out half the population of the world first as then it's easier to take control and then rebuild on their terms. I mean no disrespect to the US citizens they are the innocent in this, but US politics in particular their foreign policies is not good and they are basically doing what Hitler tried but in a more underhand way. It's the new world order.

http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Pent ... 8/Y/M.html