Europe - In or Out?

[Steve97]

Didn't there used to a British empire, and then it became a commonwealth and didn't we run it for all its bad and good points, point being theres plenty of Countries out there to trade with that we have long standing relationships with so thats not too bad, what bugs me is all the employment rules the EU has imposed for the good of the working man (whatever that is these days) all that will go and we will be back with tories sending kids up chimneys again and profit will rule, just remember most politicians at the top are public school educated and know nothing about real life,

i would like us to stand on our own two feet, and not depend on anyone, or be beholden to them

Why should i pay child support for some kids in a different Country

I will buy your bratwurst if you buy my apples....but that doesn't seem to happen

and if we stay in and commit fully to it... why do we then need Westminster at all

as for the EU creating peace in europe for last 70 years or so....thats what the English channels for

i can see both sides, but am voting

OUT

[tony.mon]

I like Europe. It's a great place to go on holiday.
But I like living in Britain.

I'm all in favour of being friendly with the neighbours as well as the locals.
But I don't much like being told what to do, either by their lot or our lot.

I'd like to think that Britain can be self-sufficient in lots of things.
But I'm not naive enough to think that we can do that anymore.

We're part of a global marketplace already, whether we like it or not, and that's not going to change.
The bit I don't understand is that I keep hearing that "if we weren't in, we could deal with China" but can't/don't we do that already?

[StormingHonda]

Personally I am in favour of a united Europe with open borders.....however.

The way Europe is at the moment with pay rates and working right's differing drastically in each country only increases competition which to me the jobs markets should be on a level footing around Europe. You should be able to go to any country in the UE and expect same pay and contract rights in any country and have the same living standards and expectations, the same unemployment rights and benefits, instead we are left with different countries competing for work and social status which kind of makes a mockery of the whole basis of Europe.

Not to mention the currency, different exchange rates, it just doesn't work.

Each country still has its own governments, something I feel Europe shouldn't have, its should be a central government made up of elected representatives dictating policy that effect all countries in Europe and not having some opt out or, the very fact that Britain has tried to negotiate special terms is something that feels odd to me.

I have no problems with people from Europe coming and going, doing jobs, earning money, but it feels like a one sided deal, lets be honest if I went to Poland and become unemployed would I get the same care as I would in Britain, of course not.

another problem I have is the immigration side is the fact that each country has different laws you need to obtain a European passport, so you come from and African country, whilst you would have little or no chance of getting a passport in Britain you can opt to go to say Italy, rough it till you get your passport, then you can come straight to Britain, and if you think this is ludicrous, believe me it has happened, it happened in Dagenham where I lived loads of Africans with French plated cars moved into the area.

Look at Germany at the moment 1 million refugees where they reckon only 20% are actually Syrian, a few years time when they have passports, they will be coming to Britain, no two words about it.

Sorry I am not feeling Europe I'm afraid.

[Stratman]

We're part of a global marketplace already, whether we like it or not, and that's not going to change.
The bit I don't understand is that I keep hearing that "if we weren't in, we could deal with China" but can't/don't we do that already?

The out brigade peddle that myth, but I was watching the French TV the other day where Renault were doing deals with the Chinese for electric cars and also France was doing trade deals with Cuba. Of course we can do deals with the rest of the world now within the EU. Outside the EU we might have to renegotiate the basis of those deals.

Just little points such as phone roaming charges within/without the EU, the right to retire to France or Spain or wherever in future. We are better off in the EU forcing change where it's needed.

[Wicky]

I have no problems with people from Europe coming and going, doing jobs, earning money, but it feels like a one sided deal, lets be honest if I went to Poland and become unemployed would I get the same care as I would in Britain, of course not.

EU Migrant Benefits: Are Britons Ripped Off Or Would We Get A Better Deal Moving Abroad? > http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11 ... 50519.html

"The pensioners are far more likely to receive medical attention, and use the healthcare system. The likelihood of a Spanish person needing the healthcare system here is far less."

Many EU countries where Brits are entitled to receive treatment, though not Spain, have higher health per capita government spending on health than the UK, including the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, Germany, France, Sweden and Belgium.

"When it comes to those working abroad, in Germany and France British people have a right to childcare benefits too," Gottfried pointed out.

But many countries do have a different benefits system, says Gottfried. "In the UK it is a means-tested system, where as in Sweden, for example, it depends one what you contribute to the system overall."

It is a common myth that EU migrants, or Brits abroad for that matter, can walk straight from the airport or ferry into the Job Centre to pocket their dole money.

EU workers can remain in the UK for three months, but if they do not get a job or have sufficient financial means to support themselves, then they cannot stay in the country, much less claim benefits, the European Commission in the UK has pointed out.

There's a possibility that if we leave Europe it could cause a return of up to 2.2 million UK migrants currently living / working / skiving abroad in Europe. Say 1m UK retirees from Spain who preciously would use Spanish health facilities and then returning back to UK hitting the NHS

I've a friend who's last year moved to Bulgaria and he's unsure what will happen if we leave Europe and what his status would then amount to. He's used the Bulagrian health system whilst out there when he had kidney stones - Free use would potentially change if we parted from Europe.

The critical question that would decide it for me - is what would happen to the price of wine if we left? as there's a particular hallucinogenic Bordeaux Rosé I'm partial to!

[freeridenick]

Just ready a newsletter from our local (Tory) MP. He's for leaving, which was no surprise, but one of his statements was the most telling I think. [quote]...Michael Gove gave the most telling account of why he had reached his decision. He related the times that as a Minister he had wanted to do certain things but to be told repeatedly that ‘it was against EU law’ which proved a great frustration to him.[quote]

I can't see much serious debate on economic pros and cons. As has been said before, it's about migration and who has power. One has to ask who the people are who want to leave and what they have to gain from leaving. If Gove couldn't do what he wanted to do it was probably because it was no good for us. And therefore leaving will end up no good for us.

edit:
A couple of articles I've found that make interesting reading. Both from 'in' supporters but both offering some, if not comprehensive, reasoned arguments.
10 points to consider about Brexit and the EU Referendum
and
Facts and fiction about Britain in Europe

[StormingHonda]

I have no problems with people from Europe coming and going, doing jobs, earning money, but it feels like a one sided deal, lets be honest if I went to Poland and become unemployed would I get the same care as I would in Britain, of course not.

EU Migrant Benefits: Are Britons Ripped Off Or Would We Get A Better Deal Moving Abroad? > http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11 ... 50519.html

"The pensioners are far more likely to receive medical attention, and use the healthcare system. The likelihood of a Spanish person needing the healthcare system here is far less."

Many EU countries where Brits are entitled to receive treatment, though not Spain, have higher health per capita government spending on health than the UK, including the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, Germany, France, Sweden and Belgium.

"When it comes to those working abroad, in Germany and France British people have a right to childcare benefits too," Gottfried pointed out.

But many countries do have a different benefits system, says Gottfried. "In the UK it is a means-tested system, where as in Sweden, for example, it depends one what you contribute to the system overall."

It is a common myth that EU migrants, or Brits abroad for that matter, can walk straight from the airport or ferry into the Job Centre to pocket their dole money.

EU workers can remain in the UK for three months, but if they do not get a job or have sufficient financial means to support themselves, then they cannot stay in the country, much less claim benefits, the European Commission in the UK has pointed out.

There's a possibility that if we leave Europe it could cause a return of up to 2.2 million UK migrants currently living / working / skiving abroad in Europe. Say 1m UK retirees from Spain who preciously would use Spanish health facilities and then returning back to UK hitting the NHS

I've a friend who's last year moved to Bulgaria and he's unsure what will happen if we leave Europe and what his status would then amount to. He's used the Bulagrian health system whilst out there when he had kidney stones - Free use would potentially change if we parted from Europe.

The critical question that would decide it for me - is what would happen to the price of wine if we left? as there's a particular hallucinogenic Bordeaux Rosé I'm partial to!

I would like to know that as well, what happens to people who are over here/over there. I think the only solution would be for people those people would be to check if A, they have found work, B, if they have acquired a criminal record, if not I don't see any reason for them not to become citizens of this/those countries.

The thing is as well people need the bare facts laid out to them and not the ramblings of the left or the right side of the spectrum, but we wont get that.

We keep using Spain as a model but I don't think that's fair people were going there way before we started seeing Europe become closer in terms of laws and such.

Personally I don't see it being as bad as people are making it sound either way, in or out

[bigtwinthing]

I think Cameron made a right mess-up of the negotiations- if he'd got a decent result he might have convinced more people that we can remain in but talk a better deal for Britain.
Maggie got the better deal....

And the council can over-rule the deal he managed to get anyway.

I think we, as British people, would like to think that we can self-determine.
But we want to be part of the European marketplace, without trading as an outsider.
We can't have both.

And, Chris, we cant fill the jobs we need with British people- so we need the incoming workers in order to find people who are willing to do the Care jobs, and other jobs where we simply can't find British workers to employ.
We hardly have a queue of East Europeans, etc, either- no-one wants the unpopular jobs, and repatriating incomers won't fix that.

Bloody Hell Tony i agree with that 100%, thats a first Eh!

[StormingHonda]

You can still trade in Europe with the same rights, but you pay for it, but were paying either way, and outside negotiations have nothing to do with Europe, we are in a market place and its a competition, you don't have protection either way in or out of Europe.

[Mav617]

That's enough for me to vote us OUT: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35868007

[Mav617]

All the big guns coming out now......crying to stay in, they're proper worried. I'm still for leaving.

[kev64]

Undecided

[bigtwinthing]

After a weeks skiing in France and speaking to a very sensible Magistrate who was there too, OUT!!! Ive totally changed my mind and its Defo "Out" for me.

[lloydie]

Out .

[redpig]

In out in out shake it all about