Honda Cam Chain Tensioners - Life Expectancy From New

[tony.mon]

I fitted new std ones after buying my first Storm.
The rear one failed 18 months later, bent valves.
I switched to manuals after that.
No further problems.

[Hondo]

My Storm had new ones fitted by a dealer last April, but I have just changed mine to Manuals. I just didn't want to risk it. The job is fairly easy too if you follow the excellent guide on here.

[8541Hawk]

I fitted new std ones after buying my first Storm.
The rear one failed 18 months later, bent valves.
I switched to manuals after that.
No further problems.

and did you let it sit and "warm up" on the side stand?

[8541Hawk]

"otherwise Honda would have been inundated with failures during the late 90's early 00's?"

They were, and a petition was sent to Honda sometime around Sept 2003 to try and get them to admit there was a problem.

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... da#p438467

Yes that was sent in but nothing ever happened as they only received a few complaints compared to the number of units manufactured.
No big recall no redesign. So either Honda makes crap or the problem isn't as wide spread as some think.
Sure you have heard about many failures but then again you usually only hear about failures. It is not common for someone to post up....yeah nothing broke today.
Add to that most folk just don't or wouldn't want to deal with the back lash of going against the norm. Hate to say it but many folks are very closed minded on the topic even though none can explain why the issue exists and\or why it appears Honda has ignored the supposed issue.

As for Hondas response and lack of making any changes (yes there have been "revisions" but you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a first gen unit and one made today) in 20yrs,well you can either believe it is because Honda doesn't give a crap about reliability and just builds a pile of crap or it was looked into and they have decided that it is not a manufacturing defect. The problem is caused by how the bike is operated.

I believe Honda came to the same conclusion as I have, the issue is caused by operator error. The whole warming up on the side stand has killed countless numbers of these bikes.
Honda is covered because they state not to start any of their bikes on the side stand, mainly for safety issues but never the less they are covered.

So what does actually kill a auto cct? It is not oil or oil flow it is heat. When left to "warm up" or left to idle on the side stand you are actually overheating the front acct. After a number of these heat cycles, the spring breaks.
That is why they can still be broken. No matter what spring you put in there it will either break or put so much tension on the cam chain as to cause a different set of issues if you abuse the bike in this manner.


Why does it overheat? Pull out your service manual and turn to the cooling system. Now look at how the coolant circulates through the engine.
If looked at from sitting on the bike, the coolant for the rear cyl enters from the right (water pump) side, goes up and flows in a clockwise direction.
The front enters from the same side and the flows anti-clockwise.

Now think about the bike sitting at idle on the side stand with almost no coolant flow. The rear acct "sees" the coolant as it enters the cyl. the front "sees" it as it is ready to exit the cyl.
Can you see how the front acct will see much more heat? Plus the fact the slow moving coolant could be heat soaked by the time it gets anywhere close to the front acct and it makes perfect sense why the front auto cct can fail.

Now stand the bike up, let it fast idle for around 30 secs then set off and run it at 3-4K until the temp gauge starts to move and guess what, no issues.
Then again this is just my opinion on the subject and I have only put over 100K miles (which included 10-15 or so track days in its life) on a VTR engine with ACCTs, so what the hell do I know?

As a last bit of advice, again just my opinion, never let the bike sit and idle on the side stand. Even with manual ccts you are damaging your engine.
Or you can just treat the bike like an old air-cooled beast that needed to "warm up" before you could ride it......though you should remember, this is the liquid cooled era, things did change.

That is why I have the opinion that on a new to you VTR, you must change the CCTs. Which units you run is whichever you are most comfortable with.
Sure manuals work great but you can still abuse your engine if you continue with bad habits.
The "stopper mod" is a good bit of engineering and well worth the effort if you need a bit more "peace of mind" and just plain autos can work fine if you don't abuse them.

[lumpyv]

they normally go at idle or low revs I believe? ?

[tony.mon]

I fitted new std ones after buying my first Storm.
The rear one failed 18 months later, bent valves.
I switched to manuals after that.
No further problems.

and did you let it sit and "warm up" on the side stand?

No, I just start 'em and ride 'em.

[davebonline]

Out of interest, have many of you guys had your autos go since doing the stopper mod?

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[AMCQ46]

Out of interest, have many of you guys had your autos go since doing the stopper mod?

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

no,
still on the original Autos with the stoppers

[Wicky]

"otherwise Honda would have been inundated with failures during the late 90's early 00's?"

They were, and a petition was sent to Honda sometime around Sept 2003 to try and get them to admit there was a problem.

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... da#p438467

Yes that was sent in but nothing ever happened as they only received a few complaints compared to the number of units manufactured.
No big recall no redesign. So either Honda makes crap or the problem isn't as wide spread as some think.
Sure you have heard about many failures but then again you usually only hear about failures. It is not common for someone to post up....yeah nothing broke today.
Add to that most folk just don't or wouldn't want to deal with the back lash of going against the norm. Hate to say it but many folks are very closed minded on the topic even though none can explain why the issue exists and\or why it appears Honda has ignored the supposed issue.

As for Hondas response and lack of making any changes (yes there have been "revisions" but you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a first gen unit and one made today) in 20yrs,well you can either believe it is because Honda doesn't give a crap about reliability and just builds a pile of crap or it was looked into and they have decided that it is not a manufacturing defect. The problem is caused by how the bike is operated.

I believe Honda came to the same conclusion as I have, the issue is caused by operator error. The whole warming up on the side stand has killed countless numbers of these bikes.
Honda is covered because they state not to start any of their bikes on the side stand, mainly for safety issues but never the less they are covered.

So what does actually kill a auto cct? It is not oil or oil flow it is heat. When left to "warm up" or left to idle on the side stand you are actually overheating the front acct. After a number of these heat cycles, the spring breaks.
That is why they can still be broken. No matter what spring you put in there it will either break or put so much tension on the cam chain as to cause a different set of issues if you abuse the bike in this manner.


Why does it overheat? Pull out your service manual and turn to the cooling system. Now look at how the coolant circulates through the engine.
If looked at from sitting on the bike, the coolant for the rear cyl enters from the right (water pump) side, goes up and flows in a clockwise direction.
The front enters from the same side and the flows anti-clockwise.

Now think about the bike sitting at idle on the side stand with almost no coolant flow. The rear acct "sees" the coolant as it enters the cyl. the front "sees" it as it is ready to exit the cyl.
Can you see how the front acct will see much more heat? Plus the fact the slow moving coolant could be heat soaked by the time it gets anywhere close to the front acct and it makes perfect sense why the front auto cct can fail.

Now stand the bike up, let it fast idle for around 30 secs then set off and run it at 3-4K until the temp gauge starts to move and guess what, no issues.
Then again this is just my opinion on the subject and I have only put over 100K miles (which included 10-15 or so track days in its life) on a VTR engine with ACCTs, so what the hell do I know?

As a last bit of advice, again just my opinion, never let the bike sit and idle on the side stand. Even with manual ccts you are damaging your engine.
Or you can just treat the bike like an old air-cooled beast that needed to "warm up" before you could ride it......though you should remember, this is the liquid cooled era, things did change.

That is why I have the opinion that on a new to you VTR, you must change the CCTs. Which units you run is whichever you are most comfortable with.
Sure manuals work great but you can still abuse your engine if you continue with bad habits.
The "stopper mod" is a good bit of engineering and well worth the effort if you need a bit more "peace of mind" and just plain autos can work fine if you don't abuse them.

Where to begin - early on yes Honda I'm sure put in down to acceptable rate of failure - as we know its much the same design as used on its range of inline fours which don't have such catastophic failure due to its inate configuration. Possibly after the VF choccie cams fiasco Honda didn't want attention drawn to the any more problems with its engineering / and or associated costs/ bad publicity etc. And as most were possibly happening outside of warranty when they weren't legaly or financially responsible.

I'm assuming a bell curve of auto CCT failure rates / to milage, based on individual reports over the years - sufficient enough for significant numbers of owners the world over signing the petition in 2003 (6 years after the bike was first released) alerting Honda to the problem, if they weren't already aware of it from warranty claims - but Honda could have figured it from a bell curve analysis that most would occur and the owners expense!

I honestly think you've been lucky by keeping ahead of the bell curve by changing them every 30k or (?) but as your recent failure shows you can't keep beating the odds.

I'\ve looked in the Honda owners manual for the VTR (2005) and I can't see anything specific warning owners not to start and run the bike on the sidestand.

Nearest reference I can see is the reference to Starting the Engine - nothing overtly warning owners not to idle the bike on the sidestand - or is this something in the Service Manual )that owners wouldn't have ready access too_

STARTING THE ENGINE
Always follow the proper starting procedure described below.

This motorcycle is equipped with a side stand ignition cut-off system. The engine cannot be started if the side stand is down, unless the transmission is in neutral. If the side stand is up, the engine can be started in neutral or in gear with the clutch lever pulled in. Afterr starting with the side stand down, the engine will shut off if the transmission is put in gear before raising the side stand.

Your motorcycle's exhaust contains poisonous carbon monoxide gas. High levels of carbon monoxide can collect rapidly in enclosed areas such as a garage.
Do not run the engine with the garage door closed. Even with the door open, run the engine only long enough to move your motorcycle out of the garage.

Do not use the electric starter for more than 5 seconds at a time. Release the start button for approximately 10 seconds before pressing it again.

...

Snapping the throttle or fast idling for more than about 5 minutes at normal air temperature may cause exhaust pipe discoloration.

Afer the engine has been warmed up, the motorcycle is ready for riding.

Remember that your Honda dealer knows your motorcycle best and is fully equipped to maintain and repair it

[8541Hawk]

I fitted new std ones after buying my first Storm.
The rear one failed 18 months later, bent valves.
I switched to manuals after that.
No further problems.

and did you let it sit and "warm up" on the side stand?

No, I just start 'em and ride 'em.

Well the since it was the rear that let go, I would look at the jetting you were running first.
Sounds to me like the same issue I talked about with the front cct. You were overheating the rear cyl. This normally happens when you run the rear too lean.
A thermostat\cooling system issue will also kill the rear cct. as the rear will overheat the fastest and get the hottest.

Plus some folks are just good at breaking bikes.....

[tony.mon]

Engine was standard then, along with carbs and jetting. I hadn't opened the wallet any further than was necessary to buy the bike and put fuel in it back then.

How times change, eh?


It was certainly unusual, I've repaired many failed cct bikes over the ears, and only ever two including mine were rear ones.
Rear ones, which are a piece of pi££ to do, compared to the front, of course.......

[sirch345]

"otherwise Honda would have been inundated with failures during the late 90's early 00's?"

They were, and a petition was sent to Honda sometime around Sept 2003 to try and get them to admit there was a problem.

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... da#p438467

Yes that was sent in but nothing ever happened as they only received a few complaints compared to the number of units manufactured.
No big recall no redesign. So either Honda makes crap or the problem isn't as wide spread as some think.
Sure you have heard about many failures but then again you usually only hear about failures. It is not common for someone to post up....yeah nothing broke today.
Add to that most folk just don't or wouldn't want to deal with the back lash of going against the norm. Hate to say it but many folks are very closed minded on the topic even though none can explain why the issue exists and\or why it appears Honda has ignored the supposed issue.

As for Hondas response and lack of making any changes (yes there have been "revisions" but you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a first gen unit and one made today) in 20yrs,well you can either believe it is because Honda doesn't give a crap about reliability and just builds a pile of crap or it was looked into and they have decided that it is not a manufacturing defect. The problem is caused by how the bike is operated.

I believe Honda came to the same conclusion as I have, the issue is caused by operator error. The whole warming up on the side stand has killed countless numbers of these bikes.
Honda is covered because they state not to start any of their bikes on the side stand, mainly for safety issues but never the less they are covered.

So what does actually kill a auto cct? It is not oil or oil flow it is heat. When left to "warm up" or left to idle on the side stand you are actually overheating the front acct. After a number of these heat cycles, the spring breaks.
That is why they can still be broken. No matter what spring you put in there it will either break or put so much tension on the cam chain as to cause a different set of issues if you abuse the bike in this manner.


Why does it overheat? Pull out your service manual and turn to the cooling system. Now look at how the coolant circulates through the engine.
If looked at from sitting on the bike, the coolant for the rear cyl enters from the right (water pump) side, goes up and flows in a clockwise direction.
The front enters from the same side and the flows anti-clockwise.

Now think about the bike sitting at idle on the side stand with almost no coolant flow. The rear acct "sees" the coolant as it enters the cyl. the front "sees" it as it is ready to exit the cyl.
Can you see how the front acct will see much more heat? Plus the fact the slow moving coolant could be heat soaked by the time it gets anywhere close to the front acct and it makes perfect sense why the front auto cct can fail.

Now stand the bike up, let it fast idle for around 30 secs then set off and run it at 3-4K until the temp gauge starts to move and guess what, no issues.
Then again this is just my opinion on the subject and I have only put over 100K miles (which included 10-15 or so track days in its life) on a VTR engine with ACCTs, so what the hell do I know?

As a last bit of advice, again just my opinion, never let the bike sit and idle on the side stand. Even with manual ccts you are damaging your engine.
Or you can just treat the bike like an old air-cooled beast that needed to "warm up" before you could ride it......though you should remember, this is the liquid cooled era, things did change.

That is why I have the opinion that on a new to you VTR, you must change the CCTs. Which units you run is whichever you are most comfortable with.
Sure manuals work great but you can still abuse your engine if you continue with bad habits.
The "stopper mod" is a good bit of engineering and well worth the effort if you need a bit more "peace of mind" and just plain autos can work fine if you don't abuse them.

An interesting read that, definitely food for thought.
I certainly have not, and wouldn't let my bike warm up on the side stand ever.

One thing I don't like about new Honda CCT's is, when you receive them the plunger is fully retracted meaning the CCT spring is under full tension, something that the spring never is once the CCT has been fitted and in use on the bike. These new CCT's could be in that state for many months before they are purchased for use, when you take into consideration time at sea when being shipped to different countries and in warehouses and motorcycle dealers stores. Surely this can not be helping the life expectancy

Chris.

[fulviogsx]

Hello guys!
I have just bought a wonderful '98 vtr with 9000 km absolutely original!
Of course from the second time i switched it on(just the time to reach my home),the tensioner of the 1st cylinder began to make noises .i have already read all literature about this fail (this is why i discovered this portal) and i have a question:
As my bike is almost brand new, i would make a try before to change something. May be an idea take off the cap of the chain tensioner and screw it completely clockwise and successively release it ? May be I will reduce the slack without change or disassemble anything....

[sirch345]

Welcome aboard

Sorry to hear you may have CCT problem already.

Yes you can remove the bolt at the end of the CCT (cam chain tensioner) and with a flat blade screwdriver turn the worm clockwise (as you mentioned, well done in noting that) to check that the CCT spring has failed or not. I wouldn't turn it any more than half a turn, even a quarter of a turn you may notice it turn back on it's own if the spring is still good.

The best way to do that test would be to set the valve timing up first just as you would if you were going to replace a CCT, that way there is no load on the cam chain. You need to set the timing for the cylinder you are going to check. The front CCT's are more common to fail.
Setting Valve timing link:- http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8326

Chris.

[fulviogsx]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for fast reply.in the next days i will try.in the meantime I changed the oil (5100 motul 15/50), and today I drove pretty hard it for 40 kilometres.results: the noise disappeared