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tony.mon
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by tony.mon »

You won't feel any slack with the standard ones, because the internal spring takes up any slack.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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sirch345
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by sirch345 »

purgeraptor wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:19 pm Another question :lol:

Fitted the manual CCTs today and set the chain slack to 6mm.
Was surprised at how tight the chains were tensioned by the OEM auto CCTs before I started...hardly 2mm of play in each.

Why is it recommended to set the manual CCT slack much looser in comparison?
The reason the manual cam tensioners are set with more slack in the cam chain are because the OEM CCT's self adjust. This equates in having to have the manual CCT's set at a happy medium. I will try to explain below.

I have spent many hours studying how the OEM CCT's operate on the Firestorm/Superhawk, I have written about this on here some years ago. To give you a rough idea of how the front CCT operates, is at approximately at 3,000rpm's the CCT tension backs off around 1/4 of a turn on the worm/screw meaning the cam chain has more slack in it. It stays with that reduced tension on the cam chain all the way up rev range, only tightening back up again when the rev's drop to approximately 3,000rpm. HTH's.

Getting back to the Swingarm Bobbins, here's a link that you may finding interesting:
viewtopic.php?p=446784&hilit

Chris.
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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

Thanks Tony and Chris.

I had no idea the auto backs off at 3K rpm. I had assumed it was a 'one-way' thing, similar to a spring loaded ratchet.
Much happier now with the manual setting :thumbup:
Although I guess it'll be a bit more noisy up to 3K than the auto.
I wonder if Honda were thinking of the noise testing when designing the auto ccts?

Re bobbins, I'll try cups first, but not had much success with those in the past as they slide along the arm and scratch it.
I'll most likely do the drill and tap thing, and in the unlikely event that ever fails, I'll fit rivnuts, then if that fails weld the blocks on :D
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sirch345
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by sirch345 »

purgeraptor wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:56 am Thanks Tony and Chris.

I had no idea the auto backs off at 3K rpm. I had assumed it was a 'one-way' thing, similar to a spring loaded ratchet.
Much happier now with the manual setting :thumbup:
Although I guess it'll be a bit more noisy up to 3K than the auto.
I wonder if Honda were thinking of the noise testing when designing the auto ccts?
Re: Noise testing, either that or less for the average owner to worry about, it may well be both IMHO. Being automatic CCT adjusters means the owner or repair shops wouldn't end up adjusting Manual CCT's with the wrong tension.
May be slightly noisier at start-up, but once the engine has warmed up a touch I doubt you'll notice any difference.

Just in case you were wondering :D
I had a look at my notes on my findings re: OEM CCT's. I put 3,500rpm's in my post above, that figure should have been 3,000rpm's, I have now put that right, and in your quote too :thumbup:
purgeraptor wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:56 am Re bobbins, I'll try cups first, but not had much success with those in the past as they slide along the arm and scratch it.
I'll most likely do the drill and tap thing, and in the unlikely event that ever fails, I'll fit rivnuts, then if that fails weld the blocks on :D
:lol: :lol: A least you have a plan :clap:

Chris.
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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

Yes, making the CCTs fool-proof probably the main driver. Shame they weren't designed to be bullet-proof too!

My plan has been amended by the discovery of a pair of bobbins on threaded bar, in my deep 'stock' (actually fallen behind the workbench and forgotten for 10 years) :lol:

Fitted through the axle whilst I complete the current work on the paddock stand, then I'll revert to the original plan :thumbup:
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sirch345
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by sirch345 »

purgeraptor wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:44 pm Yes, making the CCTs fool-proof probably the main driver. Shame they weren't designed to be bullet-proof too!

My plan has been amended by the discovery of a pair of bobbins on threaded bar, in my deep 'stock' (actually fallen behind the workbench and forgotten for 10 years) :lol:

Fitted through the axle whilst I complete the current work on the paddock stand, then I'll revert to the original plan :thumbup:
Had they been bullet-proof they would have been brilliant.
Back in the day a petition was started by the Superhawk Forum (USA Firestorm is a Superhawk) which was presented to Honda, but they basically didn't agree there was a problem there, so nothing was done. Although some seem to think an uprated CCT was later available, I have not had or seen any proof to confirm this.

Good find of yours behind the workbench :lol:

Chris.
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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

I have the carbs on the bench, and decided to check the existing settings.
Good news is that they are completely clean inside!

Pilot screws were 1 turn out front and 1.25 turns out rear....I reckon previous owner has misunderstood the Honda Service manual drop test propcedure. ie from point of idle drop (when turning screw in), then turning out front 1 turn and rear 1.25.

Without a gas analyser (as recommended by Haynes) or trying to do the idle 'drop test' running the bike, what is a good baseline to start with?

I already have standard 175 and 178 mains, #48 pilots, standard needles, standard airbox and filter, but with un-baffled aftermarket end cans.

I did a search and there are many different opinions ranging from 1 to 2.5 turns out!

At the moment I'm going for Hawk's recommendation of #48 pilots, standard mains and needles, and 2.25 front and 2.5 rear turns out from seated on pilot screws. I am leaving the needle jets standard, but may shim these up with a 0.5mm DJ washer if I get a stumble on transition in the mid-range.

Any other views?

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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

Also fitted a front vacuum take-off

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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

One last question for today.

I tested the resistance of the TPS sender on the rear carb.

Everyone including Haynes and the Honda workshop manual says resistance between the lower two terminals in the sensor should be about 500 ohms when set correctly and the throttle is fully closed.
But...mine reads 5,120 Ohms as tested on two different multi-meters.

Is the 500 ohm thing a mistake carried on down the ages because of a typo in the first manual, and carried on because people can't read multi-meters?
Or is it me that can't read a multi=meter? :lol:

I get the correct specified 5,000 ohm reading between the outer terminals of the sensor, so I doubt that both my meters are mis-reading.

I couldn't test how the resistance changed as the throttle was opened, as I don't have three hands!

One final thing, the service manaul says the TPS sensor has shear bolts, but mine has anti-tamper torx bolts.

Again, and any views welcome :D
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sirch345
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by sirch345 »

purgeraptor wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:47 pm One last question for today.

I tested the resistance of the TPS sender on the rear carb.

Everyone including Haynes and the Honda workshop manual says resistance between the lower two terminals in the sensor should be about 500 ohms when set correctly and the throttle is fully closed.
But...mine reads 5,120 Ohms as tested on two different multi-meters.

Is the 500 ohm thing a mistake carried on down the ages because of a typo in the first manual, and carried on because people can't read multi-meters?
Or is it me that can't read a multi=meter? :lol:

I get the correct specified 5,000 ohm reading between the outer terminals of the sensor, so I doubt that both my meters are mis-reading.

I couldn't test how the resistance changed as the throttle was opened, as I don't have three hands!

One final thing, the service manaul says the TPS sensor has shear bolts, but mine has anti-tamper torx bolts.

Again, and any views welcome :D
It sounds as if you have the muti-meter on the wrong scale setting, meaning your reading is 512 not 5,120 Ohms :?:

570 ohms is now the sweet spot.

Mine also has anti-tamper torx bolts.
purgeraptor wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:31 pm Also fitted a front vacuum take-off

Image
Nice job :thumbup:

Chris.
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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

That's what I thought on my cheapo multi-meter, so I also got my old works auto-ranging Fluke meter out...and that reads out 5.12kohm on the display.
Mystery. But the bike rode fine on the 50ish mile ride home from the dealership I bought it from.
I'll just put it back together. Must be me measuring it incorrectly.

Good news on the torx bolts. Thought someone may have fitted a set of carbs from a different bike. Mine's a 2001, which I guess is VTR1000F1?
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sirch345
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by sirch345 »

purgeraptor wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:33 pm That's what I thought on my cheapo multi-meter, so I also got my old works auto-ranging Fluke meter out...and that reads out 5.12kohm on the display.
Mystery. But the bike rode fine on the 50ish mile ride home from the dealership I bought it from.
I'll just put it back together. Must be me measuring it incorrectly.

Good news on the torx bolts. Thought someone may have fitted a set of carbs from a different bike. Mine's a 2001, which I guess is VTR1000F1?
The earlier bikes have a 16ltr fuel tank, the OEM "Firestorm" decal is on the petrol tank.

The later bikes have a 19ltr fuel tank, the OEM "Firestorm" decal is on the fairing side panels,

Chris.
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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

Yep, mine's the 16 litre tank version, also with the basic analogue clocks.

Refitted the carbs, airbox and tank today after putting a new repair kit in the vacuum fuel tap.
The rubber piece that stops the flow when no vacuum is applied was cracked and dried out. I blame stale E10 fuel that had been standing in the tank before I bought it.
Couldn't get the tap filter out of the hole in the tank, and it eventually snapped off inside. Had to fish it out by removing the fuel cap fixings, and shaking the tank upside down.

Trying to think of a way of fitting a remote manual tap and in-line fuel filter now.

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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

All back together.

Manual CCTs purring...no louder than the autos as far as my hearing can tell.

Repaired vacuum fuel tap working with no leaks. Took a few attempts to start as carbs needed priming.

Does need a new battery though, as 5 initial attempts to start it flattened it (from what my Optimate said was a full charge).
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purgeraptor
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Re: Hi from Reading

Post by purgeraptor »

Bought a new Yuasa.

Old battery was firmly stuck in the battery box, so took ages to lever it out.

Discovered why. It was swollen due to over voltage charging by the duff RR which was on the bike when I bought it.

Surprised that it hadn't ruptured! 8O

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