1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

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MK_WF
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by MK_WF »

I have the DSO 202 which is a 2 channel device :
https://www.sainsmart.com/products/dso2 ... ouchscreen
Bye
Martin
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sirch345
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by sirch345 »

You're certainly going for it, keep up the good work :thumbup:

Chris.
4x2
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by 4x2 »

Well, no bueno on the modified valve cover (leaking like crazy, seems to be warped) so I've ordered another one on ebay and I'll use a different cam sensor that doesn't require welding.
Also created a filter in lid thingy with a filter I found in my parents garage and the spare lid I had.
Sounds annoying as hell TBH, so that's going in the trash.
Also the tacho was working every now and then and the bike was behaving very erratic, checked the logging when I got back home: quite regular 18V peaks....
Oh well, good excuse to upgrade to a mosfet RR..

On the plus side I got it to idle pretty nicely (at 1900rpm by the time I finished some adjustments, so need to back it off a bit, think I'll try to find one of those flexible adjustment screws on ebay)
twinfreak
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by twinfreak »

Great work!
For the injection data: you use the Ducati Throttles?
Maybe you can read out a Ducati ECU for the base injection data set up?


Twinfreak :thumbup:
twinfreak
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by twinfreak »

My set up was the RC51 throttles........fitted with side plates matching for the VTR F.
The plan was to use the fuel pump from the VFR 800. AS a result the injection data table from the RC 51 can be used for the base.........
The Honda VFR and RC5 fuel pumps deliver the same pressure.

But i stopped my project because the time........

Twinfreak
IMG_20200801_165729.jpg
4x2
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by 4x2 »

twinfreak wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:26 am Great work!
For the injection data: you use the Ducati Throttles?
Maybe you can read out a Ducati ECU for the base injection data set up?


Twinfreak :thumbup:
The Ducati uses the Alpha-N system, I'm trying to use speed-density and see Alpha-N as a last resort (on a roadbike, on a racebike, yep, no problem)

For a simple explanation as to what Alpha-N and speed-density are;
Alpha-N is basically the simplest (and crudest) way to determine how much fuel to inject, it assumes a theoretical link between throttle position (alpha) and rpm (N) and you simply tell the ECU "at ****rpm and **% throttle opening open the fuel injector for **ms"
Advantage: very, very simple, no more sensors needed than the bare minimum, no restrictions in the intake, doesn't need a stable vacuum to operate.
Disadvantage: cannot deal with changing load conditions very well especially during cruising phase (1st gear vs 6th gear, uphill vs downhill)

Speed-density bases the fuel injected on rpm & the correlation between air temperature and manifold vacuum to calculate how much air should be going into the engine (and as a result how much fuel is needed)
Advantage: quite simple (a map sensor breaking is very, very, very rare), can deal with changing load conditions very well, no intake restrictions.
Disadvantage: it needs a proper resolution in the vacuum created in the engine, so fewer cylinders and 1 throttle per cylinder can cause severe issues in the available resolution in which you are able to tune.
To explain that a bit; normal 4cyl car engine, 1 throttle plate with large capacity behind it, normal camshaft: let's say Coasting at 2500rpm 40Kpa, cruising at 2500rpm 60KPa, slow acceleratinon at 2500rpm 75KPa, full throttle at 2500rpm 95KPa, so a 50KPa resolution and the rpm range to tune with.
Now, let's move it to a VTR; 2 cyl engine, 2 throttle plates very close to the valves, lots of valve overlap: Coasting at 4000rpm 60KPa, cruising at 4000rpm 75KPa, slow acceleration at 4000rpm 90KPa, full throttle at 4000rpm 98KPa, much smaller resolution (just above idle it's even worse)

As you can imagine this makes tuning far more complicated, but there are a few tricks around it, it's just a matter of trial & error to see what works best, if you can get speed-density to work it is the preferred option on the street
Although a well tuned Alpha-N setup that has a properly adjusted closed loop lambda adjustment (ie: continous adjustment of injected fuel based on feedback from the 02/Lambda sensor) will work very well.

Then there's also the option of using a MAF sensor (Mass air flow) that will simply tell the ECU exactly how much air is flowing into the engine rather than calculating or guesstimating it.
Provided you have the data which voltage corresponds to which airflow and there's no air leaks behind the sensor.
If you build a proper airbox, make sure there's a laminar flow going into the sensor this will work with any setup.
Advantage: very smooth running, practically tunes itself (when I changed my trackday car from speed-density to MAF it took 3-4 15min runs on the road to get it pretty much perfect and it ran even smoother in the lower rev range, really an eye opener)
Disadvantage: it's a (minor) intake restriction and the sensors do go bad, especially if you use an oiled filter.

[edit]
Well, so much for the simple explanation....
Ok, simpler version then;
Alpha-N -> computer assumes amount of air going into system, any mods will upset it immediately
Speed-density -> computer calculates amount of air going into system, to some extent self tuning when performing mods
MAF -> computer knows amount of air going into system, essentially self tuning as long as you stay within the max flow the sensor can take
[/edit]
MK_WF
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (yaay, it runs)

Post by MK_WF »

60 kPa in low range. You lucky b8stard :-)

When I tried speed density on the RD it had "low" values at around 90 in idle and "high" 100 kPa at WOT.
That's 10 kPa difference to be divided on 8 bin rows for MAP.

With the MS1 in the MiniMS there wasn't even a relative scale of MAP% but only absolute MAP!
That's why I decided to go with AlphaN quickly, but still have the MAF laying around that I wanted to try when I have time....
Bye
Martin
4x2
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

Post by 4x2 »

Actually the range is less than that, it's more like 75/80 - 99, but at least I'm able to tune idle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYOAUUgDhRg

Drove around a bit yesterday afternoon, in t-shirt & normal clothes so not taking any stupid chances (apart from the full throttle run in the beginning) to gather some more data. Sound is recorded with a seperate camera with external mic underneath the seat, hence the lack of windnoise, just had to sync the video & sound (in a very simple way; beep the horn)

End of the video shows me using the phone with the MSdroid app to make a few quick adjustments.
It's connected via a bluetooth receiver/transmitter to the speeduino, it works extremely well.
This is an example from my previous trackday car using a Google Nexus tablet with shadowdash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrc4JPQ34A

Weather/time permitting I'll probably create an Alpha-N map as well, see which one I like better and is more consistent.
mik_str
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

Post by mik_str »

Very impressive stuff!
99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
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sirch345
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

Post by sirch345 »

I agree that is impressive :thumbup:
Thanks for posting the video's,

Chris.
4x2
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

Post by 4x2 »

Hehe, thanks, you're making me blush :mrgreen:

In other news I created an idle adjustment that you can actually use, sacrificed a dremel flex cable for it and it gave me an excuse to play with the lathe again.
Image

And this was the minimal effort filter in lid;
Image

It worked (as in: it was driveable) but I had enough of the induction noise after I left the driveway..

And I did switch to AlphaN, created a base map based on the logging data I collected in previous runs and it was actually quite driveable from the start.
So after fixing the oil leak on the valve cover I'll probably start to fully tune it, then go back to speed-density, fully tune that and see which one I like best (or create a blended map)
WileCyot
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

Post by WileCyot »

What ever happened with this project? Still going?
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