Europe - In or Out?

[Mav617]

Referendum 23rd June - are you an "In-nie" or an "Out-ie"?

[Seeker 77]

It's so hard to split the rhetoric from the facts, I'm completely undecided. The right wing in me says get out now, but I really don't want to jump ship and then discover that we've screwed the country's economy up by getting out. We should not be swayed by the Tories and the quotes of a budget surplus in a few years. Our net borrowing is still off the scale, and we are not out of the woods on the road to financial recovery.

[chric]

OUT AND THEN SEND ALL THE FOREIGN WORKERS BACK

[tony.mon]

I think Cameron made a right mess-up of the negotiations- if he'd got a decent result he might have convinced more people that we can remain in but talk a better deal for Britain.
Maggie got the better deal....

And the council can over-rule the deal he managed to get anyway.

I think we, as British people, would like to think that we can self-determine.
But we want to be part of the European marketplace, without trading as an outsider.
We can't have both.

And, Chris, we cant fill the jobs we need with British people- so we need the incoming workers in order to find people who are willing to do the Care jobs, and other jobs where we simply can't find British workers to employ.
We hardly have a queue of East Europeans, etc, either- no-one wants the unpopular jobs, and repatriating incomers won't fix that.

[adyf]

For me it seems simple , I know it's more complex than most people know , but i want out , don't like being dictated too by an unelected commission that's not right , also we are outside the Euro now so no loss there , I just want our ability to govern with no interference , I believe we pay into the EU in a big way , be nice to spend that on the NHS etc.

[Mav617]

Personally, I think the Brussels gravy train is a tax on Britain. Plus, all the EU immigrants, some of whom are honest, hard-working people are putting a strain on our resources of housing, teaching, medical care etc. I want out, and a similar deal to what Canada negotiated with the EU: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ceta/

[fabiostar]

prob so much we dont understand the way the big machine works but for me its a vote to leave. we should be able to make our own laws

[Dendrob]

[quote="tony.mon"]

.......we cant fill the jobs we need with British people- so we need the incoming workers in order to find people who are willing to do the Care jobs, and other jobs where we simply can't find British workers to employ.
.....[/quote)

In my lifetime, this hasn't always been the case. I'm not convinced it is now. What is supposed to have changed? When there are people unemployed it doesn't make sense. My problem is probably that I'm trying to apply sense to it!

[Mav617]

Problem is that they will take those jobs, living 8 or 9 to a house and settling for £6 an hour which is twice what they earn in Latvia or Bulgaria, meaning our young folk have no jobs to go to whilst working their way up.

[tony.mon]

Problem is that they will take those jobs, living 8 or 9 to a house and settling for £6 an hour which is twice what they earn in Latvia or Bulgaria, meaning our young folk have no jobs to go to whilst working their way up.

I run a medium-sized care business, employing people to work across six London boroughs.
We turn down so much work each day you wouldn't believe, all because we can't find enough people who want to apply for the jobs.
In the last eighteen months/two years we have found it increasingly difficult to recruit, and today I could easily take on twenty full-time workers earning £9 or £9.15 an hour, but they simply don't want to work for those wages.

As you say, people with lower overheads will apply, but even so, we can;t get enough workers- and neither can any other employer in our sector.
We're not alone- there's loads of jobs going at the moment.

So the idea of a queue of immigrant workers from the new entrants to the EEC simply doesn;t seem to be the case, in my experience.
And you can;t argue that they're taking our jobs, because British people simply don't want the jobs.

Unless and until dole handouts are cut to the point where it's uncomfortable to be unemployed, and working makes you much better off, we're not going to change these things.
I have around a third of my staff of 300 who won't work any more than 16 hours/week, because they would lose out on housing benefit- Income Support, tax credits- all the same game, really. But if you get the same money, all but a tenner a week, working only 16 hours, instead of 40, why would you do the extra work? 24 more hours/week for £10?

I'm not running a sweatshop, and the pay rates mentioned above are real, however the work is in central London, where the cost of living -rent, food etc- is high as well.
People choose to do as much or a s little as they wish, and the Government pays them enough to live on either way.
There's no incentive to work when the dole money is as good as it is at present.

And yes, I've been unemployed myself, months at a time trying to live on that money, so I do know it;s not easy. I have every sympathy with those looking for work.
But the point is, there's no real incentive to work when there's little difference in the rewards you get for it.

If we leave, however, don't think that the markets for exported goods will eb as plentiful as they are at present, and of course we would have to pay more for imported goods. We are reliant on a lot of imports; food, clothing, vehicles, consumer goods- there will of course be some home-grown equivalents, and if we opt out more will start up. I'd rather not have to buy an affordable car form the likes of British leyland when better, but pricier goods are available for the club we've just left.

I don;t know if I have a case to make either way at the moment- I don't like it too much the way it is, but fear the consequences of the other choice.......

[Dendrob]

But the point is, there's no real incentive to work when there's little difference in the rewards you get for it.


..

Nothing to add m'lud.

[Watty]

OUT AND THEN SEND ALL THE FOREIGN WORKERS BACK

Mmm! Controversial statement Chris. If they are legitimately working and paying taxes surely that can only be good for the economy! If they are tax dodgers and benefit cling ons then I agree!

[Mav617]

You make a lot of good points Tony. If we come out, then I'd want benefit cuts too to bridge the gap so our own youth have to work, not it become a lifestyle choice. I bought my first bike working at Boots on weekends, I wouldn't bet on either of my lads getting that chance now.

[artee]

I'm not running a sweatshop, and the pay rates mentioned above are real, however the work is in central London, where the cost of living -rent, food etc- is high as .

So a tin of beans cost more in a London Tesco than a Northern Tesco?

Roger

[tony.mon]

I'm not running a sweatshop, and the pay rates mentioned above are real, however the work is in central London, where the cost of living -rent, food etc- is high as .

So a tin of beans cost more in a London Tesco than a Northern Tesco?

Roger

Possibly. Possibly not. But a pint to go with them is nearly a fiver....
And the flat you sit in to eat them would cost you a whole lot more......And you can't park anywhere; there's a congestion charge for even driving in, and public transport is overcrowded and expensive.