The last transferred thread for the day...... this one was written up after a couple new guys had posted up statement like " I pulled my fork up 1.5" (or 38mm to you guys) and the bike works great" which gave me a moment....
Once again here you go:
As I've seen a few posts lately about folks making some radical changes to their bikes geometry I though it might be a good idea to post up the basics of how a bikes front end actually works and what you are changing when you raise or lower the forks in the triples or add (or take away) ride height in the rear.
While I will be using bike related examples, these same principals apply to anything with steerable wheels, from cars to jet aircraft or even a shopping cart.
The main thing to look at is "Trail" which is the distance by which the axle "trails" the point at which the steering axis (not the fork axis) of a motorcycle contacts the ground.
Trail is required to ensure a steerable wheel is stable in following the steered direction. You can visualize trail as a lever arm that tends to center the steered wheel behind the steering direction. More trail means a longer lever arm and greater centering force (or stability).
Motorcycle steering geometry is determined by four measurements:
Rake - The angle of the steering axis (where the triple clamp mounts to the frame), measured from vertical.
Tire Radius - Half of the tires outside diameter.
Offset - The distance from the steering axis to the fork axis
Trail - The distance from where the steering axis contacts the ground to where a vertical line through the axle contacts the ground.
When you change rake, steering offset or tire radius, you change trail and the relative stability of the bike. More rake angle gives more trail. Less rake angle gives less trail. More offset gives less trail, Less offset gives more trail. More tire radius (a bigger tire) gives more trail. Less tire radius gives less trail.
All pretty simple measurements and their relationship is the basis of a motorcycles steering behavior.
So why mess with the factory settings?
Until recently streetbike manufacturers were pretty conservative in choosing steering geometry, consistently compromising in the direction of stability. Which makes perfect sense, steering geometry may be pretty simple but stability is not. It includes many things including strength and stiffness of the structural parts, tire characteristics, weight placement and many other things. So it is best to stay away from steering geometry that might cause instability in a complex system.
With this information setting up a bike for the track or even getting a streetbike to turn easier involved reducing trail or trying to make the steering geometry less conservative.
Normally this is accomplished by sliding the fork tubes up in the triple clamps (this steepened or decreased the rake angle and shortened trail) Increasing the rear ride height steepened the rake even farther and reduced trail even more (or lowering the rear will increase trail)
So feel free to experiment with settings, just remember the less trail you have, the more unstable the bike becomes. Make small changes, as your life does depend on it......
Also manufactures no longer are as conservative with there steering geometry. Many late model bikes are close to the limit of stability as delivered, so much more care is required in making changes to these bikes (The SH is not one of these, but be careful making changes on late model sports bikes).
Rake and Trail
Rake and Trail
Loud pipes don't save lives, knowing how to ride your bike will save your life.
- lloydie
- Posts: 20927
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:16 pm
- Location: In the garage somewhere in Coventry
Re: Rake and Trail
Interesting reading .
Thanks hawk
Thanks hawk
Re: Rake and Trail
Good article thanks
Re: Rake and Trail
You are a wealth of knowledge Hawk
Re: Rake and Trail
Thanks Hawk. I like it when a concept is backed up by hard empirical data!
Is it worth me adding that this is where the trail braking term comes from, oops, I just have! As the front brake is applied and the forks compress, so the rake and trail angles increase. The advantages of this may not be readily apparent, but well worth considering:
the bikes geometry is now such that a greater turn input can be applied if desired, and because the front brake is already minimally applied, it can be safely applied further without the 'newbie' snatch locking up the front. These two factors allow a greater range of options if we need to alter something whilst in the turn. I'm a convert, and find it extremely useful indeed.
Is it worth me adding that this is where the trail braking term comes from, oops, I just have! As the front brake is applied and the forks compress, so the rake and trail angles increase. The advantages of this may not be readily apparent, but well worth considering:
the bikes geometry is now such that a greater turn input can be applied if desired, and because the front brake is already minimally applied, it can be safely applied further without the 'newbie' snatch locking up the front. These two factors allow a greater range of options if we need to alter something whilst in the turn. I'm a convert, and find it extremely useful indeed.
Rather a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
Re: Rake and Trail
Ps. The front brake should never be snatched, but always progressively applied. Trail braking doesn't change that!
Rather a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
- rollingthunderx2
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:12 am
- Location: Hawick, scottish borders on A7
Re: Rake and Trail
Talking to someone today, about low centre of gravity, I said it can push the front contact patch along rather than into the ground when braking, he said, well just use the back brake more...????
Also a low c of g makes a bike too stable and doesnt lean in as quick, that was dismissed too...
Also a low c of g makes a bike too stable and doesnt lean in as quick, that was dismissed too...
- freeridenick
- Posts: 1615
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 1:30 pm
- Location: Derbyshire
Re: Rake and Trail
You're right on both counts. I've been reading about rake and trail as well as suspension set up and the low c of g was mentioned in a race suspension set up info sheet I've got. It stops the weight transfer which helps push the tyre into the tarmac. Makes it harder to turn in too.rollingthunderx2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:14 am Talking to someone today, about low centre of gravity, I said it can push the front contact patch along rather than into the ground when braking, he said, well just use the back brake more...????
Also a low c of g makes a bike too stable and doesnt lean in as quick, that was dismissed too...
In the same info sheet it mentioned raising tyre pressure to reduce temp and vice versa. I thought it was a typo and it took me a while, and some more reading, before I got my head around that. My point being that it's easy to assume you're right when you don't have all the info.