Muslim Intergration??

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Wicky
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by Wicky »

Question: Are Muslims permitted to lie?

Summary Answer: Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."
There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.
Presumably sourced from this Islamophobic website> http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

Which has distorted the answer somewhat from a prudent pragamatic historical rational for lying into a more aggressive reason for them doing so.

Are Muslims allowed to deceive non-muslims through a practice called Taqiyya?

Wikipedia says,

In Islam, taqiyya تقية (alternative spellings taqiyeh, taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah) is a form of religious dissimulation, or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.
However it's not "non-muslims" who are allowed to be deceived. Ibid. says,

The doctrine of taqiyya was developed at the time of Ja'far al-Sadiq (d. 148 AH/765 AD), the sixth Imamiya Imam. It served to protect Shi'ites when Al-Mansur, the Abbasid caliph, conducted a brutal and oppressive campaign against Alids and their supporters.
An evidence confirming this would be an unambiguous historical or Quran example of a lie to a non-Muslim that was officially explained away as "OK" because of Taqiyya

Ibid.,

In 16th century Spain, following the end of the Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula in 1492, Muslims and Jews were persecuted by the Catholic Monarchs and forced to convert to Christianity or face expulsion. The principle of taqiyya became very important for Muslims during the Inquisition in sixteenth century Spain, as it allowed them to convert to Christianity while remaining crypto-Muslims, practicing Islam in secret. In 1504, Ubayd Allah al-Wahrani, a Maliki mufti in Oran, issued a fatwā allowing Muslims to make extensive use of taqiyya in order to maintain their faith.

Heck in WW2 Jewish GIs, fearful of being identified as such by their Nazi captors, were left with the following options:
1) Have no letter of religious preference stamped on their dogtags.
2) Make the “H” stamped on their dog-tags illegible.
3) Discard their dog-tags completely prior to being taken captive.
4) Have a letter signifying a different religious preference stamped on their dog-tags.

In the course of researching this topic, I discovered that during WWII, all four of these options were, in fact, employed by Jewish GIs.

In a letter to the editor of The New York Times, dated June 22,1994, Paul Lippman of Hoboken, New Jersey wrote:

… Many Jewish G.I.’s omitted from their dog-tags the indication that their religious identity was Jewish for the prudent reason that in the event of falling into German hands, their lives would be at greater risk if they were identifiable as Jewish
… As a combat veteran I know that my dog-tags and those of many of my Jewish companions were religiously anonymous.


In a 1999 San Diego Jewish Press–Heritage article about WWII-era Jewish US prisoners of war, several soldiers’ experiences are reported. Seymour Brenner was

… a field medic when he was captured in France after being knocked unconscious by an artillery blast. A quick thinking non-Jewish member of his unit broke Brenner’s dog-tag in half, burying in the snow the part which had the “H” for his religion engraved upon it. When their capturers asked why Brenner’s dog-tags were broken, the buddy said it was because they had been engraved with the wrong blood type and were expected to be replaced.
The lie may have saved Brenner’s life. Unaware that he was a Jew, the Germans decided to use his training as a medic to treat fellow prisoners at Stalag 5-A, which they reached after a 14-day forced march ‘without food or water’.”


Earlier in that same article, the author writes of Sam Kimbarow, who

… threw away his US Army dog-tags identifying him as a Jew before he was captured by German soldiers during World War II’s famous Battle of the Bulge. Later, at a camp for prisoners of war, he was in the middle of a crowd when a German officer asked if there were any Jews among the prisoners. About five American soldiers stepped forward, but Kimbarow was not among them. He watched as they were led away to uncertain futures.
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol15Males.pdf
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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VTRDark
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by VTRDark »

If you go back far enough we all originate from what is now called Africa. Apparently. So does that make us all African. :roll: TBH I don't think the origin matters so much but it's more to do with culture and the way of life. I don't want to live in a country where I can't buy a pizza or go and have a curry but I don't wont to be surrounded by pizza shops and curry houses. If I want that I would go to Italy or Asia. I hear they do good pizzas in Asia :lol:

The same for religion, different cultures, beliefs. Give me a taster of them all but don't impose it on me and change the culture if the majority don't wont it. At the end of the day I'm a Brit and I have my own culture and live by my own culture and rules in my country of origin. Problems arise when this gets taken over and spreads like a disease to the point where the culture changes. If I go abroad I will live by whatever rules and culture that country has out of respect and expect the same in return.

If we did not live like this then we would all be equally the same. Wear the same clothes, eat the same food, live by the same rules and would all walk around like brainwashed zombies. How boring would life be. We would all be part of the collective just like the Borg. Maybe this is the way it's going, like I said in one of my earlier posts. The machines will take over. How long before we start having robotic parts and bio skeletons and then eventually evolve into humanoid, android type beings.

Sounds crazy yeh, but I am a believer that the majority of Sci fi does eventual become true. going to the moon was sci fi and sounded crazy to my grandparents when they where kids. Star Trek type transporters are not far off. I believe they have done it with solid matter. Holo-suites and virtual reality is only around the next corner. We're in the begins of it already with 3D gaming and some of the Porn stuff out there. Dangle a dongle on your dingle, plug in your virtual specs and away you go. How long before there is no more paint to put on the wall because the walls in your house are made from LCD or similar panels and you can change the colour at the touch of a button. etc etc.

As is said in Buddisim, the only thing that is constant in life is change. :beer:

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StormingHonda
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by StormingHonda »

Wicky wrote:
Next your be saying we are a nation of immigrants, that one's always my favourite.
At a fundamental level it can be surprising the background of folk who think of themselves as true Yorkie Brits...

Image
Seven men from the North of England sharing Revis as their surname can trace their DNA to Africa. Blonde (though now mostly bald and gray) and blue-eyed John Revis is one of them. After tracing his family history to the U.S. and England, he donated a DNA sample to Leicester University. Researchers found that portions of his Y chromosome could be linked to Africa.

It was a shock to find out that, because I was so blond and blue-eyed when I was younger, people thought I was Nordic or German.

But the researchers said that if my DNA were examined then people would assume they were looking at a North African man.

I suspect there must have been some big Berber tribesman who came to Britain with the Romans and spread his seed all over Yorkshire.


Before you gasp, have a look at these images of the Berber people at the William Coupon Gallery. It is easy to see that most if not all could pass as white. Also, African slaves arrived in Europe during Roman Times around 1800 years ago allowing plenty of time for population admixture.

Mr. Revis, however, might be just a tad confused. According to the King et al. study published in the European Journal of Human Genetics, Mr. Revis actually has an hgA1 Y chromosome that has a West African origin. Of 18 Yorkshire men who have the Revis surname, seven have the same chromosome and their most recent common ancestor lived in Yorkshire in the 18th century.

The researchers conclude:

Our findings represent the first genetic evidence of Africans among ‘indigenous’ British, and emphasize the complexity of human migration history as well as the pitfalls of assigning geographical origin from Y-chromosomal haplotypes.

Statements like this one made by Mr. Revis’s wife is just plain silly in light of the fact the environment and culture in which you grew up and live determine much of the food you like to eat and what you like to do.

I can hardly believe it. John has always seemed very English to me. He likes his roast beef and Yorkshire pudding on a Sunday. He has never asked me to cook anything unusual. My friends think our news is hilarious.

The closest John ever came to the traditional Berber life was when he went camping with the Scouts. I don’t think we’ve been in a tent since we got married.

The Berber people had a particularly interesting role to play in the Maghreb. They alternately resisted and accepted new beliefs and political regimes, and yet remained ethnically a coherent group. They are found as far south as northern Nigeria and as far north as Morocco. They range in colour from dark to fair.

Many Berbers became the mainstay of the Arab armies, indispensable for their riding and fighting skills.

Image
The faces of modern North Africa.
Some peoples origins are surprising and often tracing the ancestry tree can be a good. I know on my mothers side there is Spanish, on my grandmothers side Irish ( father ), my father side is English, my wife side is Polish and Norman.

so can a Scot, Irish, Welsh or Englishman claim 100% ethnicity? No they cannot, however what is common is the European Ethnicity that runs through, the great migrations in the UK Did happen, the Celt's looking for Tin, the Romans looking for power, the Saxon filling a void to hold back the Picts at Hadrian wall and then the conquering Normans ( Vikings ) These European people seeded the nation and made it was it was today, since the Normans we have had immigration but nothing on the scale since then until now, and now we don't just have mass immigration we have culturally changing immigration.

The plus points is that you get to meet people who have different view points, different ways of doing things and you get a taste of different foods. However the bad side is because of the sheer numbers it is creating stagnant communities and is not only being exploited by people but being used a facilitator for crime and violence. It is also at a cost to our culture, which is not perfect but has harboured many great men, an empire, fairness and tolerance ( maybe not so much in the past ).

I couldn't care less the colour, sexual orientation or origin of my neighbour, I only ask they respect my culture, history and county that's all, but when you have mass immigration on this scale its never going to happen.
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Stephan
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by Stephan »

cybercarl wrote:If we did not live like this then we would all be equally the same. Wear the same clothes, eat the same food, live by the same rules and would all walk around like brainwashed zombies. How boring would life be. We would all be part of the collective just like the Borg.
Excellent write up of muslim culture, look at their girls. Unfortunately intolerance to other cultures and killing manners, are also similar to Borgs.
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lloydie
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by lloydie »

my family name side can be traced back to before 1066AD.
My mothers Maiden name my auntie had traced it back to some where in the 1400s and she's still doing it .
Both names are of English nobility .
Now where did I leave my castle ?
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MacV2
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by MacV2 »

Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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fabiostar
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by fabiostar »

think how i feel. iv ended up bloody french lol... i mean french wtf lol :beer:
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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lloydie
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by lloydie »

fabiostar wrote:think how i feel. iv ended up bloody french lol... i mean french wtf lol :beer:
Could be worse you could be dawn French !!!!
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fabiostar
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by fabiostar »

lloydie wrote:
fabiostar wrote:think how i feel. iv ended up bloody french lol... i mean french wtf lol :beer:
Could be worse you could be dawn French !!!!

lmao jesus wept my house aint that big lol
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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VTRDark
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by VTRDark »

I can't stand that woman.

Image

:lol:

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RodsOddsAndSods
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Re: Muslim Intergration??

Post by RodsOddsAndSods »

Thing is, you can't blame a religion for people.. if so you'd blame Christianity for Hitler... Don't look at the followers look at the source... Islam isn't a area thing there are muslims born all over the world from China to Africa Europe and Australia.. intelligent muslims just don't seem to have any public airtime and all we get is the morons who make people believe that is all Muslims... I am white.. British through and through.. my grandfather fought in the war and if he knew in reality what he was fighting for since both the British and Germans were sold armoury from the same source ( exactly the same as now) it's an atrocity that can only be resolved using peace... Our British people are being recruited and killed for things that doesn't concern the safety of British public.. seems to me that when ( not if) the military are on Britain's roads keeping the peacefulness you ( don't) possess then none of us will have a voice
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