I've seen it mentioned that Honda 'uprated' the forks on the later model VTR1000. Does anybody know exactly what this upgrade is please?
I'm intrigued because the handbook gives the same standard settings across the entire model range, & I'd have expected to see some difference if there truly had been an 'upgrade'.
BTW I spent a lot of the weekend trying to set the sag on my bike, & what a palaver that is!
I've only got 2 - 3 mm static sag at the rear even with the shock on position 1, and with the forks wound round down so there are only 2 rings showing on the front I've got a massive 40 mm static sag at the front. No wonder it handles like a rodeo bull. I've got some serious twiddling to do!
Another forking question about later model Firestorms
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firestorm_al
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I think that Honda made a minor modification to the valving to make them a bit less prone to hydraulic lock.
When I did my Firestorm forks I couldn't quite stretch to a full re-build so fitted some Ohlins single rate springs and fresh oil. That made a massive difference to the bike and is well worth it as the standard springs are about as usefull as a chocolate tea-pot!
The standard rear is over spring and under damped so the spring set at the first notch is about right for the static sag ( if I remember correctly I had mine set at the same ).
Just remember to only change one thing at a time and it's amazing how what seems like a tiny change in the settings can make a big impact on how the bike rides. No two folk like exactly the same settings so don't take someones settings as right.
Happy tinkering!
Al.
When I did my Firestorm forks I couldn't quite stretch to a full re-build so fitted some Ohlins single rate springs and fresh oil. That made a massive difference to the bike and is well worth it as the standard springs are about as usefull as a chocolate tea-pot!
The standard rear is over spring and under damped so the spring set at the first notch is about right for the static sag ( if I remember correctly I had mine set at the same ).
Just remember to only change one thing at a time and it's amazing how what seems like a tiny change in the settings can make a big impact on how the bike rides. No two folk like exactly the same settings so don't take someones settings as right.
Happy tinkering!
Al.
Granty mate I here ya, I've now got 2400km's on my bike now, so you would think that the suspension would have freed up. So why is it so hard to get it right?
Al you like others say that you need the rear spring on the lowest preload setting........but hell its way to soft ya sit on the bike and the wheel dam near hits the gard???
Al you like others say that you need the rear spring on the lowest preload setting........but hell its way to soft ya sit on the bike and the wheel dam near hits the gard???
cheers Darryl
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firestorm_al
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DD,
When I said that the rear shock was over sprung I was meaning in relationship to the damper unit which is not up the the job. In your case it sounds like the spring is too soft when the bike is laden therefore I would recomend getting a WP, Ohlins or Penske shock & spring fitted that is matched to your weight and riding style as there is no point wasting time trying to set up a shock when you cant get the static & laden sag set up in the first place.
Al.
When I said that the rear shock was over sprung I was meaning in relationship to the damper unit which is not up the the job. In your case it sounds like the spring is too soft when the bike is laden therefore I would recomend getting a WP, Ohlins or Penske shock & spring fitted that is matched to your weight and riding style as there is no point wasting time trying to set up a shock when you cant get the static & laden sag set up in the first place.
Al.
Hiya Al
Thanks for the response, I'm very interested to read that you think the rear shock is over-sprung and under-damped. I have no technical expertise in these matters at all, but like you I'd concluded that the rear shock must be over-sprung, however I thought it must also be over-damped because of the way my butt gets punched out of the seat and the rear wheel is spending more time airborne than tracking the road surface.
Surely if the shock was under-damped as you suggest we would be experiencing full suspension travel, and the shock absorber would be hitting the bump stops as it gets fully compressed?
Heck, I'm confused. Why didn't Honda just upgrade the components over the period of model manufacture? My 'Storm is newer than my CBR600 F-Sport which was made in 2001, but had far superior suspension as standard equipment.
I'm really pissed off that I need to spend a further 20% of the bikes purchase price on replacing inadequate suspension components just to make the machine safer and more comfortable. I'm seriously begining to wonder if I might have a civil claim against the retailer or manufacturer, after all there is more than ample evidence on these forums about the consensus of opinion over the issue.
I wouldn't mind half as much if the salesman had warned me that there are engine management and suspension problems with Firestorms, at least I'd have had the choice to buy or not. But to wait until I come back with a list of faults and then say, "oh, they're all like that" really makes me angry. I spent every last penny buying the bike and have no reserves for expensive and necessary modifications, and I feel that the bike is a dangerous liability in its present state, so I'm in a no-win situation.
Ho-hum, rant over. I realise that little old me will stand a snowballs chance of pursuing a civil claim, so I might just as well keep fiddling until I discover an acceptable level of performance, and just hope it doesn't chuck me off half way around a bend when the road surface changes!
Thanks for the response, I'm very interested to read that you think the rear shock is over-sprung and under-damped. I have no technical expertise in these matters at all, but like you I'd concluded that the rear shock must be over-sprung, however I thought it must also be over-damped because of the way my butt gets punched out of the seat and the rear wheel is spending more time airborne than tracking the road surface.
Surely if the shock was under-damped as you suggest we would be experiencing full suspension travel, and the shock absorber would be hitting the bump stops as it gets fully compressed?
Heck, I'm confused. Why didn't Honda just upgrade the components over the period of model manufacture? My 'Storm is newer than my CBR600 F-Sport which was made in 2001, but had far superior suspension as standard equipment.
I'm really pissed off that I need to spend a further 20% of the bikes purchase price on replacing inadequate suspension components just to make the machine safer and more comfortable. I'm seriously begining to wonder if I might have a civil claim against the retailer or manufacturer, after all there is more than ample evidence on these forums about the consensus of opinion over the issue.
I wouldn't mind half as much if the salesman had warned me that there are engine management and suspension problems with Firestorms, at least I'd have had the choice to buy or not. But to wait until I come back with a list of faults and then say, "oh, they're all like that" really makes me angry. I spent every last penny buying the bike and have no reserves for expensive and necessary modifications, and I feel that the bike is a dangerous liability in its present state, so I'm in a no-win situation.
Ho-hum, rant over. I realise that little old me will stand a snowballs chance of pursuing a civil claim, so I might just as well keep fiddling until I discover an acceptable level of performance, and just hope it doesn't chuck me off half way around a bend when the road surface changes!
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thehazmatguy
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Granty, I am sorry you feel this way.
I have to ask, why didn't you do a little investigating BEFORE spending your every last penny?
If you wanted a top notch Honda v-twin canyon racer, why not buy the RC51?
I really feel that the VTR1000 is a super bike if you use it as it was intended. It is a great commuter bike that you can have fun on. Not quite VFR800 comfortable, not quite RC51 aggressive. My insurance company even considers the VTR1000 a "sport-tourer" instead of a full sport bike.
There are plenty of people on this forum, including myself, that have made front end changes. And rear end changes. And lots of other little changes.
If you really want to complain, complain about a commuter bike that goes 120 miles on a tank of fuel!
I have to ask, why didn't you do a little investigating BEFORE spending your every last penny?
If you wanted a top notch Honda v-twin canyon racer, why not buy the RC51?
I really feel that the VTR1000 is a super bike if you use it as it was intended. It is a great commuter bike that you can have fun on. Not quite VFR800 comfortable, not quite RC51 aggressive. My insurance company even considers the VTR1000 a "sport-tourer" instead of a full sport bike.
There are plenty of people on this forum, including myself, that have made front end changes. And rear end changes. And lots of other little changes.
If you really want to complain, complain about a commuter bike that goes 120 miles on a tank of fuel!
You know the Austin Powers movies? I have always wanted to date someone like Allota Fagina... but I always seem to date her sister Sandy.
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Well, I was home sick yeasterday afternoon, so I set about making some adjustments to my suspension (seeing the wife wasn't around to complain about me working on the bike!)
Firstly, I wound the preload on the rear right off, from being in position 3 originally. The rebound adjustment was already set to softish, so I didn't touch that. Next, I wound the preload on the front right off, counting the number of turns, then wound eack fork leg's adjuster in by 10 turns (2.5 rings showing), and each rebound adjuster to 3/4 of a turn from hard.
This morning the bike felt a lot better over bumps, especially in the corners, but I noticed that softening up the rear (thus lowering it slightly) had made the front handlebars turn into corners more when going around tight, slow-speed corners. I may yet shim the rear shock to restore the feel I had before. By the way - the front fork tubes are raised to their maximum in the yokes (haven't yet measured them, but they were this way when I bought the bike - maybe as much as 15 or 20 mm).
Firstly, I wound the preload on the rear right off, from being in position 3 originally. The rebound adjustment was already set to softish, so I didn't touch that. Next, I wound the preload on the front right off, counting the number of turns, then wound eack fork leg's adjuster in by 10 turns (2.5 rings showing), and each rebound adjuster to 3/4 of a turn from hard.
This morning the bike felt a lot better over bumps, especially in the corners, but I noticed that softening up the rear (thus lowering it slightly) had made the front handlebars turn into corners more when going around tight, slow-speed corners. I may yet shim the rear shock to restore the feel I had before. By the way - the front fork tubes are raised to their maximum in the yokes (haven't yet measured them, but they were this way when I bought the bike - maybe as much as 15 or 20 mm).
- Ian in EnZed
(Red 97 FireStorm with Dynojet kit, APE camchain tensioners, bafflectomy+ploogs, UniFilter, GenMar risers, Avon Azaros, 90/130W headlight, digital clock/voltmeter), Braided s/steel lines.
(Red 97 FireStorm with Dynojet kit, APE camchain tensioners, bafflectomy+ploogs, UniFilter, GenMar risers, Avon Azaros, 90/130W headlight, digital clock/voltmeter), Braided s/steel lines.
Hi folks, thanks for the responses.
I realise that I'm a bit of a pariah on this forum, but the fact that so many of you are happy with your machines does give hope that I will be able to glean some useful information from members about setting the bike up & achieve a similar level of satisfaction myself.
However I suppose I have to ask myself if I just have a 'Friday afternooner', lets face it Honda is a big manufacturing organisation, and even with their quality control some duffers must slip through the net. I could just be unlucky, & if so my problem is establishing just what is 'standard' for a VTR, and then getting it fixed under warranty.
As to why I didn't do some research before purchase, well thats a complicated story, but basically it boils down to the fact that I couldn't get a test ride on a VTR, and because I was happy with the build quality, and comfort, and handling, and fuel economy on the Honda I have been riding since 2001, I naively assumed that the new bike would be the same. A CBR600 with guts, if you like.
Added to the fact that I just walked into the showroom on an entirely different matter, & saw the brilliant yellow Firestorm winking at me & going "hello big boy, wanna good time". I was just a sucker with a credit card, & like a rabbit in the spotlight, within an hour I'd paid the deposit & signed the order form. Heck, I picked it up only 3 days later, how quick was that then? That timescale in itself could be part of my problem, I'm wondering if the dealer had enough time to do a proper PDI, and perhaps merely poured some fluids in before I took delivery.
I think I'll give Roger a call and see what advice he might be prepared to give me about making the best of the standard equipment until I can afford the upgrades.
I realise that I'm a bit of a pariah on this forum, but the fact that so many of you are happy with your machines does give hope that I will be able to glean some useful information from members about setting the bike up & achieve a similar level of satisfaction myself.
However I suppose I have to ask myself if I just have a 'Friday afternooner', lets face it Honda is a big manufacturing organisation, and even with their quality control some duffers must slip through the net. I could just be unlucky, & if so my problem is establishing just what is 'standard' for a VTR, and then getting it fixed under warranty.
As to why I didn't do some research before purchase, well thats a complicated story, but basically it boils down to the fact that I couldn't get a test ride on a VTR, and because I was happy with the build quality, and comfort, and handling, and fuel economy on the Honda I have been riding since 2001, I naively assumed that the new bike would be the same. A CBR600 with guts, if you like.
Added to the fact that I just walked into the showroom on an entirely different matter, & saw the brilliant yellow Firestorm winking at me & going "hello big boy, wanna good time". I was just a sucker with a credit card, & like a rabbit in the spotlight, within an hour I'd paid the deposit & signed the order form. Heck, I picked it up only 3 days later, how quick was that then? That timescale in itself could be part of my problem, I'm wondering if the dealer had enough time to do a proper PDI, and perhaps merely poured some fluids in before I took delivery.
I think I'll give Roger a call and see what advice he might be prepared to give me about making the best of the standard equipment until I can afford the upgrades.
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EggShellBlond
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:55 pm
Granty,
I don't think you're unreasonable to have expressed yourself in the way you have.
In fact , I think you're being DEAD reasonable
If I'd had the problems you've had I'd be living in that dealers house , in his face 24/7
Stick with it , and good luck
Stu
I don't think you're unreasonable to have expressed yourself in the way you have.
In fact , I think you're being DEAD reasonable
If I'd had the problems you've had I'd be living in that dealers house , in his face 24/7
Stick with it , and good luck
Stu
If a job's worth doing..........It's worth paying someone to do it properly
This is the best thing to do, even better speak to Roger then pop along to suspension specialist near you if you have one armed with the best settings for your weight/riding style. Then later on you can go down the new shock/Rogered Forks/Blade Forks route if needed and cash willing. Get the standard suspension sorted first.Granty wrote: I think I'll give Roger a call and see what advice he might be prepared to give me about making the best of the standard equipment until I can afford the upgrades.
Welshy :-)
Bikeless :-(
Bikeless :-(
Granty wrote:
Get another Storm rider to give it a run, for a second opinion. If your bike really is unrideable get it back to the dealer. If its just a matter of taste, get tweaking.
The Firestorm is a famously benign bike - no way can it be described int the above terms. In its stock state it may not be perfect but you should be able to get straight on and enjoy it. You're bound to get a lot of advice about tinckering here, but don't forget that anyone on this site is probably a Storm obsessive.I feel that the bike is a dangerous liability in its present state
Get another Storm rider to give it a run, for a second opinion. If your bike really is unrideable get it back to the dealer. If its just a matter of taste, get tweaking.
Yus folks, it's twiddling time. The weekend is here and I am going to have a crack at it again. 
I had a really long talk with Roger at lunchtime today, and what a nice bloke he seems to be. Unfortunately he confirmed my worse fears, and described trying to adjust the standard suspension on VTR's to be like chasing a pea around a plate with a one pronged fork.
In reality, as many of you have said, there is no alternative to a full re-build at the front and replacement at the back, but Roger did give me some tips about how to get the best from the original equipment until such time as I can afford the upgrade. So fingers crossed. Well, actually not really, otherwise I won't be able to hold the spanners, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
I had a really long talk with Roger at lunchtime today, and what a nice bloke he seems to be. Unfortunately he confirmed my worse fears, and described trying to adjust the standard suspension on VTR's to be like chasing a pea around a plate with a one pronged fork.
In reality, as many of you have said, there is no alternative to a full re-build at the front and replacement at the back, but Roger did give me some tips about how to get the best from the original equipment until such time as I can afford the upgrade. So fingers crossed. Well, actually not really, otherwise I won't be able to hold the spanners, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
Granty, my last Storm had 20k miles on her when the rear shock blew one glorious afternoon riding around the NW200 circuit (NI public roads). Eventually replaced the shock with a Hagon. The new Storm with 3700 miles is completely different and the rear end awful and chucks me out of the seat. If it ever stops raining in this country I will be out fiddling with the settings, but replacing the rear shock is a priority because it made a suprising difference even out of the box.
What settings did Roger give you for the rear end ?
Pete
What settings did Roger give you for the rear end ?
Pete
Pete
Roger didn't actually recommend specific settings, but I'll gladly relay the advice he gave me, which has actually worked surprisingly well!
Please excuse any technical errors in this report, as quite literally I don't know what I'm talking about.
It seems that Honda owns the suspension firm Showa, and the forks & shock for the VTR have been specified to a budget, which is where the problem lies. The units are very basic, and using terms such as 'half-a-turn here', or 'one ring showing there' etc., are pretty meaningless, as the effect any specific 'setting' will have on one machine is very unlikely to be replicated on another bike.
The only common feature is that the spring rate is too soft in the forks, and too hard in the shock. Therefore Roger suggested I click the rear pre-load right back to position one, and wind the front pre-load in until there was only one ring showing at the front. Then slacken the rebound adjusters off completely at both front & rear and then compress the suspension to see exactly how quickly is snaps back and the bike bounces around before settling.
Following this the process is to wind your rebound fully in and observe how much of a difference this makes, and how slowly it returns to its static state. Having done this a couple of times to get an idea of what the two extremes are you need to adjust the rebound at both ends to achieve the fastest possible return 'under control'.
Now this is obviously quite a moveable feast, but Roger explained that the rebound damping is provided by a crude system that sounds a bit like a conical shaped plug in a tube that restricts the flow of oil from one end of the unit to the other. Unfortunately this mechanism has very low engineering tolerance & I imagine it operates in much the same manner as an ill-fitting sink plug. Certainly once I'd got near to the optimum setting I found that the slightest turn of the adjuster made a huge difference. For example from fully out or fully in I found that I could turn the rebound a full turn and it hardly made any difference at all, but once near the 'sweet spot' (well OK, an 'acceptable' spot!) a fraction of a millimetre made all the difference.
If you have ever owned a cheap analogue transistor radio (preferably one with those thumb wheel type controls) you will probably have experienced the same type of phenomenon when attempting to tune into an AM radio station. You know where you always seem to be either one side or the other of the station frequency, and actually tuning-in takes ages and an enormous amount of twiddling.
Anyway, I wouldn't describe my VTR as the best handling bike I've ever owned or ridden but it is now much better than it was
Roger didn't actually recommend specific settings, but I'll gladly relay the advice he gave me, which has actually worked surprisingly well!
Please excuse any technical errors in this report, as quite literally I don't know what I'm talking about.
It seems that Honda owns the suspension firm Showa, and the forks & shock for the VTR have been specified to a budget, which is where the problem lies. The units are very basic, and using terms such as 'half-a-turn here', or 'one ring showing there' etc., are pretty meaningless, as the effect any specific 'setting' will have on one machine is very unlikely to be replicated on another bike.
The only common feature is that the spring rate is too soft in the forks, and too hard in the shock. Therefore Roger suggested I click the rear pre-load right back to position one, and wind the front pre-load in until there was only one ring showing at the front. Then slacken the rebound adjusters off completely at both front & rear and then compress the suspension to see exactly how quickly is snaps back and the bike bounces around before settling.
Following this the process is to wind your rebound fully in and observe how much of a difference this makes, and how slowly it returns to its static state. Having done this a couple of times to get an idea of what the two extremes are you need to adjust the rebound at both ends to achieve the fastest possible return 'under control'.
Now this is obviously quite a moveable feast, but Roger explained that the rebound damping is provided by a crude system that sounds a bit like a conical shaped plug in a tube that restricts the flow of oil from one end of the unit to the other. Unfortunately this mechanism has very low engineering tolerance & I imagine it operates in much the same manner as an ill-fitting sink plug. Certainly once I'd got near to the optimum setting I found that the slightest turn of the adjuster made a huge difference. For example from fully out or fully in I found that I could turn the rebound a full turn and it hardly made any difference at all, but once near the 'sweet spot' (well OK, an 'acceptable' spot!) a fraction of a millimetre made all the difference.
If you have ever owned a cheap analogue transistor radio (preferably one with those thumb wheel type controls) you will probably have experienced the same type of phenomenon when attempting to tune into an AM radio station. You know where you always seem to be either one side or the other of the station frequency, and actually tuning-in takes ages and an enormous amount of twiddling.
Anyway, I wouldn't describe my VTR as the best handling bike I've ever owned or ridden but it is now much better than it was