Well done Mac
that's exactly what`s on mine .
it works fine
and its small enough to tuck
anywhere .
YETI..
I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
that's exactly what`s on mine .
it works fine
and its small enough to tuck
anywhere .
YETI..
-
agentpineapple
- Posts: 15124
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:16 pm
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
could you put it under the seat?
HEY YOU GUYS!!!!!!
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
It really is a simple concept, but can be confusing if you've never witnessed fluid expansion from heat, and contraction when cooled. As well as most folks think of a modern radiator cap as a one way valve,, only letting high pressure escape.. but really is it a two way valve.. opens at the pressure level designed for, but opens as well the other direction when a vacuum is present
The cooling system should be air free, filled completely with coolant. When that coolant heats up at normal engine operating temp, the coolant expands .. how much is dependent on type of coolant, pressure, temp.. but the laws for expansion are well known and can be calculated if you know the variables.
IN any case, the specifics are not needed to understand,, coolant gets hot, expands, flows past the cap to the coolant expansion bottle.
After the engine and cooling system have cooled, the coolant has contracted, this creates a vacuum in the rads, which then pulls coolant from the expansion tank back into the rads. (remember that cap is a two way valve)
So.. to the thought of, the OEM tank is larger then need.. YES
it is.
Volumetric Coefficient of Expansion of a unit of Ethylene glycol is 0.00057 per 1 deg c
The coolant capacity of the VTR is 2.9 l
The OEM cap is a 1.1 bar (16 psi) (boiling point is raised as pressure increases, so a 50/50 mix of Ethylene glycol / water at 16 psi has a boiling point of about 130 deg c)
So if the starting point of the coolant is say..16 deg c, and it is raised to just under the boiling point say 129 deg c, the volume of the unit (2.9l) would increase to 3.087 l or 187 ml... double that and you would have a safe container size for the VTR cooling system expansion tank.
Though if you way over heat and boil the coolant, the smaller size expansion tank will not contain the aerated coolant rushing into the container... so place the overflow line in a location that will not "lube" your back tire.
The cooling system should be air free, filled completely with coolant. When that coolant heats up at normal engine operating temp, the coolant expands .. how much is dependent on type of coolant, pressure, temp.. but the laws for expansion are well known and can be calculated if you know the variables.
IN any case, the specifics are not needed to understand,, coolant gets hot, expands, flows past the cap to the coolant expansion bottle.
After the engine and cooling system have cooled, the coolant has contracted, this creates a vacuum in the rads, which then pulls coolant from the expansion tank back into the rads. (remember that cap is a two way valve)
So.. to the thought of, the OEM tank is larger then need.. YES
it is.Volumetric Coefficient of Expansion of a unit of Ethylene glycol is 0.00057 per 1 deg c
The coolant capacity of the VTR is 2.9 l
The OEM cap is a 1.1 bar (16 psi) (boiling point is raised as pressure increases, so a 50/50 mix of Ethylene glycol / water at 16 psi has a boiling point of about 130 deg c)
So if the starting point of the coolant is say..16 deg c, and it is raised to just under the boiling point say 129 deg c, the volume of the unit (2.9l) would increase to 3.087 l or 187 ml... double that and you would have a safe container size for the VTR cooling system expansion tank.
Though if you way over heat and boil the coolant, the smaller size expansion tank will not contain the aerated coolant rushing into the container... so place the overflow line in a location that will not "lube" your back tire.
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lloydie
- Posts: 20923
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- Location: In the garage somewhere in Coventry
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Now it's clear thank you
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fireballxl5
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:12 pm
- Location: London Heathrow
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Well written E.M. now we all know, hope there's not a rush to buy the small expansion tank & pipes and do the conversion. Well done mate.
now we all know, hope there's not a rush to buy the small expansion tank & pipes and do the conversion. Well done mate.
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
That is a bit expensive for a plastic graduated bottle with 2 holes drilled in the top. Not too sure what the issue is with the original one as it is hidden away & takes up no space that anything else would need.
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Oh no, Darkember, not at all, that space is needed for the new improved airbox once I have the current catch tank moved out of the way.
But I'm carrying on with teh one I'm working on at the moment, and then if all is well there will be a mark 2 model.
And by the way, Marquez, you can get a 1.3 bar cap....
But I'm carrying on with teh one I'm working on at the moment, and then if all is well there will be a mark 2 model.
And by the way, Marquez, you can get a 1.3 bar cap....
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
You can get a 1.6 cap as well that fits the very standard radiator neck......tony.mon wrote:
And by the way, Marquez, you can get a 1.3 bar cap....
But for the sake of explanation I had to use SOMETHING, so I used stock items.
That said.. I used straight Ethylene glycol for the computations . a mix of 50/50 water and Ethylene glycol would have altered the expansion rate a bit. As the volumetric Coefficient of Expansion of a unit of water is 0.000214
And then is that distilled water? or tap water, what is your local water make up? way to many variables and it makes little difference in this discussion and application.
End of the day.... under all but boiling over conditions, a expansion bottle of 250ml or more should work just fine.
Last edited by E.Marquez on Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Good calcs, matey.
I only mentioned the other cap values as I was surprised when stripping a later one to find that they have higher pressure ratings.
Not sure if it's worth an "upgrade" though, as you might find that it starts leaking when it didn't before- and probably from the short link pipe- front head to thermostat housing, meaning you have to strip all the top end off the engine to get to it.
Well, seat, tank, airbox, carbs, heatshield, more work than it's worth, anyway.
I only mentioned the other cap values as I was surprised when stripping a later one to find that they have higher pressure ratings.
Not sure if it's worth an "upgrade" though, as you might find that it starts leaking when it didn't before- and probably from the short link pipe- front head to thermostat housing, meaning you have to strip all the top end off the engine to get to it.
Well, seat, tank, airbox, carbs, heatshield, more work than it's worth, anyway.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
ahh, so you were saying a 1.2 bar (17.4 psi) came stock as welltony.mon wrote:Good calcs, matey.
I only mentioned the other cap values as I was surprised when stripping a later one to find that they have higher pressure ratings.
Not sure if it's worth an "upgrade" though, as you might find that it starts leaking when it didn't before- and probably from the short link pipe- front head to thermostat housing, meaning you have to strip all the top end off the engine to get to it.
Well, seat, tank, airbox, carbs, heatshield, more work than it's worth, anyway.
did not know that. Thank you.I would not worry about the 1.2 cap hurting anything... in the summer I run a 1.5 bar cap... since 2003 nary a problem.
the 1.2 bar cap might be a UK deal,, or it was swapped before you got the bike.. best I can tell, all year VTR in the US used either 19037-GEE-710 "CAP, RADIATOR" or 19045-GBF-700 CAP, RADIATOR, both of which are 1.1 bar.
And I know my 1998 has a 1.1 bar stock..
By chance do you remember what year VTR had the 1.2 bar cap?
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Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
silly me didn't know the cap was a 2 way system 
told you not to but oh no you knew better
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lloydie
- Posts: 20923
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Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Same here I'm still miffed how it works both ways !!!macdee wrote:silly me didn't know the cap was a 2 way system
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
take a look at this i should have before i postedlloydie wrote:Same here I'm still miffed how it works both ways !!!macdee wrote:silly me didn't know the cap was a 2 way system
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/import ... or_cap.htm
told you not to but oh no you knew better
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lloydie
- Posts: 20923
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Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Taken from that link - thanks
Tridon radiator caps are manufactured in ISO9002 accredited
factories and are designed and manufactured to perform as well
as the original equipment radiator cap. Tridon style radiator caps
are in common use both in Europe and North America and suit a
very wide range of vehicle applications.
All Tridon radiator caps are the ~ style and are
suitable for use on both coolant recovery systems and non coolant
recovery systems.
A coolant re over stem has an overflow bottle attached to the
radiator and allows a two-way flow of coolant. By allowing coolant
to return to the radiator there is no opportunity for air to enter the
cooling system and the surface area of the radiator in contact with
coolant is also always maintained at the maximum area possible.
A ~tem has no bottle and can only allow the release
of coolant to the atmosphere and the return of air into the radiator.
Non recovery systems are therefore, not as efficient as recovery
systems.
Cooling system performance improves when using a recovery
style cap on a non-coolant recovery system due to more uniform
cooling system pressurisation occurring.
The Tridon radiator cap raises and regulates the pressure within
the cooling system by using both pressure and vacuum operated
valves. This pressure results in a higher coolant boiling point.
The raised coolant boiling point provides an increased safety
margin between the opening temperature of the thermostat and
the boiling point of the coolant. As a result, the complete cooling
system operates more efficiently.
In the normal position both the pressure and vacuum valves of
the Tridon cap remain closed (Figure 1 ). The pressure in the
cooling system rises as the temperature rises. When the pressure
begins to exceed the rated pressure the pressure valve opens
(Figure 2) releasing pressurised coolant from the radiator.
The pressure valve closes as the excess cooling system pressure
reduces. The cycle of opening and closing the pressure valve
continues, maintaining the appropriate system pressure and
protecting cooling system components from exposure to excessive
cooling system pressure.
The cooling system pressure reduces when the system cools down
and the coolant contracts. A negative cooling system pressure
will develop unless there is a way for the pressure in the system
to equalise. This negative pressure can cause radiator tanks and
hoses to collapse causing expensive damage to the cooling
system.
To prevent this damage the Tridon radiator cap has an additional
vacuum valve that allows coolant or air to return to the radiator
as the pressure reduces (Figure 3). This serves a dual purpose
nf allowino the coolin_ci sVstem pressure to equalise as well as
Tridon radiator caps are manufactured in ISO9002 accredited
factories and are designed and manufactured to perform as well
as the original equipment radiator cap. Tridon style radiator caps
are in common use both in Europe and North America and suit a
very wide range of vehicle applications.
All Tridon radiator caps are the ~ style and are
suitable for use on both coolant recovery systems and non coolant
recovery systems.
A coolant re over stem has an overflow bottle attached to the
radiator and allows a two-way flow of coolant. By allowing coolant
to return to the radiator there is no opportunity for air to enter the
cooling system and the surface area of the radiator in contact with
coolant is also always maintained at the maximum area possible.
A ~tem has no bottle and can only allow the release
of coolant to the atmosphere and the return of air into the radiator.
Non recovery systems are therefore, not as efficient as recovery
systems.
Cooling system performance improves when using a recovery
style cap on a non-coolant recovery system due to more uniform
cooling system pressurisation occurring.
The Tridon radiator cap raises and regulates the pressure within
the cooling system by using both pressure and vacuum operated
valves. This pressure results in a higher coolant boiling point.
The raised coolant boiling point provides an increased safety
margin between the opening temperature of the thermostat and
the boiling point of the coolant. As a result, the complete cooling
system operates more efficiently.
In the normal position both the pressure and vacuum valves of
the Tridon cap remain closed (Figure 1 ). The pressure in the
cooling system rises as the temperature rises. When the pressure
begins to exceed the rated pressure the pressure valve opens
(Figure 2) releasing pressurised coolant from the radiator.
The pressure valve closes as the excess cooling system pressure
reduces. The cycle of opening and closing the pressure valve
continues, maintaining the appropriate system pressure and
protecting cooling system components from exposure to excessive
cooling system pressure.
The cooling system pressure reduces when the system cools down
and the coolant contracts. A negative cooling system pressure
will develop unless there is a way for the pressure in the system
to equalise. This negative pressure can cause radiator tanks and
hoses to collapse causing expensive damage to the cooling
system.
To prevent this damage the Tridon radiator cap has an additional
vacuum valve that allows coolant or air to return to the radiator
as the pressure reduces (Figure 3). This serves a dual purpose
nf allowino the coolin_ci sVstem pressure to equalise as well as
Re: I'm trying to understand the coolant Reserve tank
Learn something new there on the 2 way valvebin the rad cap.
Still have to say that all my water cooled dirt bikes just vent to atmosphere and there is never an obvious air pocket when I check the water level at the end of the year, so I would be interested to see if the storm would run the same way.
Or what if you re routed te vent pipe so it went upwards and acted as its own low volume reservoir?
Still have to say that all my water cooled dirt bikes just vent to atmosphere and there is never an obvious air pocket when I check the water level at the end of the year, so I would be interested to see if the storm would run the same way.
Or what if you re routed te vent pipe so it went upwards and acted as its own low volume reservoir?
AMcQ