MYBIKES FUNERAL

[Theodio]

Well
as you can guess I have problem with my vtr. THIs is the sad and very unlucky story of me and my beauty.

As I wrote previously on the forum, I needed a chang of my CCT. OK I said, I've red the manual and ordered a new OEM CCT. When I opened the cover to check the timing I waned to remove the chain's cover you know the one wih 3 bolts.
And then, I've dropped a bolt into crankcase. I couldn';t manage to retrieve it so I called truck to pick her up and I had her on a local workshop. She stayed in for a week and I paid 160 EUROS for the bolt and to put the manual CCT in front because the back was actually OK. So I got her on Friday and after a few kms the noise of rattling chain started again!! I was pissed off. and I said I'[ll change the back CCT because the back was faulty in the end!! I started Sat morning I didn't open the cover on the back cyl I was changing the CCT and She lost timing!!! I started I reved about 3k and I realized SHOUTT!!!! I f*&^%^**k up again!!! I dont know what is going onI didnt hear a strong metallic noise (valve sitting on pistons) but she was performing very bad backfiring through carb and ex haust!

Could anyone provide me some info about my problem?

Thank you

[chaz]

would have thought best to do both ccts at same time. you would need to take front cover off to check timing to do back one.
sounds like timing and as long as you havnt revved too high and too long you might have got away with it.

[MacV2]

Fit manual CCT's !

OEM ones can go at any time.

[Wicky]

It's been told to him already plus Carl has already linked to the procedure for changing CCTs

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31019

Seems Theodio isn't confident with spanners* , and not sure if the garage he keeps trucking the bike to when something goes wrong are either. Not to sure what to suggest as at every step something goes wrong whenever Theodio or the garage do something to the poor VTR . Wonder if Tony M would be willing to fly out to the med for the weekend and put it right once and for all - it'll be cheaper than what the garage is going to end up charging….

*

I opened the cover to check the timing I waned to remove the chain's cover you know the one wih 3 bolts.

You need to take out the two inspection cap hex bolts of the alternator cover to inspect the timing position. Not sure why the you'd want to remove the drive sprocket cover.

If you tried to change the CCTs without making sure the timing was't correct for each CCT then you risk setting of a chain of events that will mean having to reset the cam chain to the right position. Do not try and run the engine till everything is back where it should be.

[Theodio]

I've red the manual and the guides to do it. But I admit it was my fault as I told the guy in the garage to fit the new CCT in front cylinder and the rattling noise continued, so I
decided to change the rear CCT as well. So I felt confident doing it without turning the crankshaft to the Rear top Dead Center because I hadnt the time to remove the head cover and according to some
guys here in Greece doing the change without keeping an eye at timing so I said "lets do it" but everything went wrong.

I didnt hear a metallic noise just carb coughing and was like working on a 4cylinder car with 3 cylinders!! Only at idle was a very very light tic tic like valve clearence, very light, I revved til 2500 rpm and turn it off. Only worked for 5-6 seconds.

I know it is my fault I contacted with the garage he said that damage might not happened and not bent valves.

Whats your opinion?

[Wicky]

The cam chain sounds like it has jumped a couple or three teeth off the cam sprockets. The top end needs opening up and the cam chain and cams reset. There are no shortcuts.

[Theodio]

Thank you Wicky for your answer!
So might get lucky and if that is what she needs so its gonna cost 50-70 euros. I wish this is the case!!

It is my first motorcycle, with my money only. I started working on June and raised some money to buy this VTR and it hurts!!

[Wicky]

Just be careful of listing to your friend's advice as they more than likely have inline 4 cylinder bikes not V-twins. IL4 owners can do what they suggested with their CCT but we are lacking the extra 2 cylinders that stop the chain from twanging off when CCT tension is removed.

If you can afford it I highly recommend you purchase and fit Krieger manual tensioners (he's in Holland so its within the EU) as when that's all sorted you'll have nothing to worry about. With Honda's auto tensioners you may have bought some time but there's no guarantee they won't fail sometime in the future.

Check the workshop knowledgebase for MCCT installation as DIY fitting isn't too hard > http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=31

Krieger, APE and Bazza CCT's > http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 16&t=22720

http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

(European Krieger stockist) http://www.exhausist.com/naks.php - contact Rob de Hoo in Holland.

[VTRDark]

hadnt the time to remove the head cover and according to some
guys here in Greece doing the change without keeping an eye at timing so I said "lets do it" but everything went wrong.

And you didn't think that the VTR1000 forum would know better. Timing has everything to do it in more ways than one. If your not very competent then this is either a job for someone that has done the job before or you have to make time to remove the cam covers.

Well you have really made things worse for yourself now, but all is not lost yet. There may be a chance that you have not caused any valve damage but don't count on it. You will need to reset the timing and check valve clearance to confirm whether or not there is any valve damage. But your going to have to remove both cam covers and at least one set of cams to reposition things now. Do not try to force the crank around when turning if you feel it jamming. This will be the valves touching the piston remove the cams so the valves retract and you should be able to turn the crank then. I would suggest you remove both cams to begin with, set the crank to RT, refit rear cylinder cams, then move onto the front. You risk getting the timing 180 out but don't worry about that for now. Just get everything spinning freely.

Be careful not to loose the camchains down inside the tunnel the front is not so bad as it hangs over the front, but the rear you really need to watch. Tie it up out the way or better still get a friend to hold the chain and feed it around as you turn the crank.

DO NOT START THE BIKE UNTIL THE TIMING HAS BEEN PUT RIGHT.

Not sure why the you'd want to remove the drive sprocket cover.

I think he's referring to the cam sprocket guides. I bet it's the little one on the side that has dropped down the tunnel.

(:-})

[Theodio]

I admit it was my stupidity

I took a risk and I lost. But I think there might be a good chance I didnt bent valves. The bike was working but not correctly.

Maybe Its the last time I put hand in her. The last time it was totally unlucky. I did it all correct, according to the manual, your info (forum) and I dropped the bolt inside. I was careless. But the 2nd time I was being stupid for sure!
Its not the first time I'm doing these repairs. Once I totally overhauled a Yamaha SR500 one cyl, piston replacements, honing, all with some tools and my bear hands and my patience! Which I lack now!!

I would like to thank you all for your answers and being so helpful!

Best Regards!!
Send luck!!

[tony.mon]

It's not too bad.
Firstly, get the crankshaft end cap and the inspection cap off. The big one 10mm Allen key needed).
Set the rear cylinder to top dead centre.
Now take off the rear cam cover and see if the cam lobes are pointing upwards and towards each other.
If they are, fine- if they're not, rotate the engine one complete turn, gently, if you feel it lock up stop, or try going backwards.
Once you have the rear cyl in the correct tdc, undo the cam sprocket bridge (don't drop the small bolt in the side down the tunnel, or any other bolt).
Just three bolts.
Now you can see if the cam sprocket lines line up with the top of the head.

If they are still lined up, great.
If not, remove the rear cct, take the cams out, and put them back in lined up correctly. Use Sirch's instructions in the Workshop Knowledgebase.

Then you can measure the valve clearances. if they are still in tolerance, (.13-.19mm inlets, .28-.34 exhaust) then the valves aren't bent.
But if the gaps are bigger, then you need to take the head off.

Assuming that the new front cct hasn't failed, that should be all you need to do.

Either that, or buy me a cheap return and I'll fly out with tools and parts and sort it, for free beer.

[leevtr]

A question on the subject.

Does it say in the workshop manual to set the cylinders to tdc before changing cct's ? My reason for asking is that even seasoned mechanics don't seem to know this, including the guy I used to use. He was a proper old school mechanic, and worked in Londons first ever 5 star honda workshop. Retired now though. When he changed my first set of cct's way back, the chain jumped a couple of teeth from memory, no damage done just had to re align it after. Because it was supposedly a 10 min job to change them, it was a while you wait thing, thats how I know what happened.

[tony.mon]

With almost all 4 cylinder engines it makes no difference where the cam is, because at any position some valves will be up, some down, some halfway up the ramp and some halfway down. So the cam won't try to rotate as soon as you remove the cct.
But with our engines it's easy to take it out when it's in a position where the springs will try to revolve the cam. And with these engines the cam chain is long enough that it can ride over the sprocket teeth when the cct is fully retracted or removed.

So you have to out the engine in a position where it won't move by itself.

Most mechanics haven't worked on one of these before, or if they have, they've been lucky.
But in my experience you can get it wrong about one in three times you remove it- it's like a hand grenade, if you hear a click, and explosion is going to happen......

[macdee]

With almost all 4 cylinder engines it makes no difference where the cam is, because at any position some valves will be up, some down, some halfway up the ramp and some halfway down. So the cam won't try to rotate as soon as you remove the cct.
But with our engines it's easy to take it out when it's in a position where the springs will try to revolve the cam. And with these engines the cam chain is long enough that it can ride over the sprocket teeth when the cct is fully retracted or removed.

So you have to out the engine in a position where it won't move by itself.

Most mechanics haven't worked on one of these before, or if they have, they've been lucky.
But in my experience you can get it wrong about one in three times you remove it- it's like a hand grenade, if you hear a click, and explosion is going to happen......

nice tony seen all the quotes about setting at tdc but didn't know the logic

[leevtr]

With almost all 4 cylinder engines it makes no difference where the cam is, because at any position some valves will be up, some down, some halfway up the ramp and some halfway down. So the cam won't try to rotate as soon as you remove the cct.
But with our engines it's easy to take it out when it's in a position where the springs will try to revolve the cam. And with these engines the cam chain is long enough that it can ride over the sprocket teeth when the cct is fully retracted or removed.

So you have to out the engine in a position where it won't move by itself.

Most mechanics haven't worked on one of these before, or if they have, they've been lucky.
But in my experience you can get it wrong about one in three times you remove it- it's like a hand grenade, if you hear a click, and explosion is going to happen......

Very informative answer, but is it in the workshop manual ?? If anyone would know about this you'd think it would be Honda.