God bless the land of the free!

[Stratman]

Guns dont kill people, people do. How many times have I heard that line and offered the same argument. So I'll once more entertain the notion.

Guns dont kill people, people do, but I can point my finger at people all day and shout "bang" and not one person will die. So no, people dont kill people in that sense, people with guns kill people.

The reason? because its easy. A gun is a weapon designed for one purpose only. To kill. Not only do they do that very effectively they do that in the worst possible way. From a distance. Any idiot could point a gun at someone from a distance and kill them but I bet you that same person could not strangle the life out of someone. A gun makes killing easy. Takes away a personal aspect of things. You want to snuff out a guys life then at least have the decency to look into his eyes and see the damage your action will cause.

Terrible things and should be left in the hands of those trained to use them.

+1

[KarlosVTR]

i think long range bombers are beautiful aircraft.

they are designed for one thing only, to kill people as a direct or indirect consequence of dropping bombs.

the pilots drop the bombs through choice of obeying or disobeying their orders.

its not the aircraft killing people. its the people taking the decision to drop the bombs. the same as the bloke taking the decision to pull the trigger to make the bullets do the killing.

the decision to kill is by the person. the discussing of a weapon as a thing of beauty is acceptable i think as long as its not taken out of context.

that is why an ak47 is a lovely piece of engineering, as is a B1-B, a TU-95 or even an old colt .45

The reason? because its easy. A gun is a weapon designed for one purpose only. To kill. Not only do they do that very effectively they do that in the worst possible way. From a distance. Any idiot could point a gun at someone from a distance and kill them but I bet you that same person could not strangle the life out of someone. A gun makes killing easy. Takes away a personal aspect of things. You want to snuff out a guys life then at least have the decency to look into his eyes and see the damage your action will cause.

go buy a knife and stab someone then

[rz_racer_69]

go buy a knife and stab someone then

Or beat them with a bat.

Just heard this morning about a moron who freaked out in a McDonalds, went out to his car, got a baseball bat, came back in and bashed in the head of the manager, and then left, using his t-shirt to grab things so as not to leave fingerprints, he knew what he was doing. Now, do those of you who think guns are evil think baseball bats should be banned too? Do you think this manager, deserved to have his brains bashed in? What if he was your son, proud to have been promoted to manager, baby on the way, trying to make ends meet, now gone, due to a psychopath. What if you were there visiting your son, and getting a cup of coffee, and saw the whole thing unfolding. What then? What would you do? You just going to stand by and watch your son get killed by a cold blooded murderer, or are you going to jump into the fight perhaps trying to get the upper hand, but instead, getting your head bashed in too, but maybe not so bad that you can't see what happens next, as the attacker then kills someone you love. I'll bet, as you are laying bleeding on the ground, you are not thinking how great it is you weren't allowed to have a gun. No, I'll bet you are not thinking that at all.

[pinkyfloyd]

So what your saying is 2 wrongs make a right?

Because thats the impression I am getting from that last statement. If you saw your son getting bashed then that gives you a right to shoot them? What gives you the moral high ground there? Oh but sir, he was going to kill me, mine, ours so I killed him so that makes me the better man.

No sir, I disagree.

I said it in my last post and I will repeat it. Guns are designed for one thing and one thing only, that is to extinguish life. Dress it up how you want, an engineering masterpiece, beautiful smooth contours, shiny metal. All irrelevant and has no bearing on what the machine was made to do. No one has ever made a gun to wound people. Their sole intention is to kill. To take a life.

So what gives you, with a gun, supporting the right to carry guns, the higher ground to say its OK for you to take a life?

As I said, I grew up in a culture where guns were every day business. I've had guns trained on me for a good part of my life and I have seen the damage having guns such a heavy feature of society causes. I've seen the families torn apart from the aftermath of gun violence and I'll never sit on the side of the fence that guns are a good thing.

I can see no place in a modern society where it is acceptable for someone to carry around legally the means to take another humans life.

[Wicky]

I'm thankful the nutter didn't have access to a gun to have killed even more folk.

Using that case as an excuse to up the ante in escalating an arms race rather than break a vicious cycle is worrying.

In Ireland the 2001> peace process involved the IRA disarming / decommissioning weapons - rather than arming all citizens. Is the US answer to gun crime to arm everyone?

[Snoogle]

go buy a knife and stab someone then

Just heard this morning about a moron who freaked out in a McDonalds, went out to his car, got a baseball bat, came back in and bashed in the head of the manager, and then left, using his t-shirt to grab things so as not to leave fingerprints, he knew what he was doing. Now, do those of you who think guns are evil think baseball bats should be banned too? Do you think this manager, deserved to have his brains bashed in? What if he was your son, proud to have been promoted to manager, baby on the way, trying to make ends meet, now gone, due to a psychopath. What if you were there visiting your son, and getting a cup of coffee, and saw the whole thing unfolding. What then? What would you do? You just going to stand by and watch your son get killed by a cold blooded murderer, or are you going to jump into the fight perhaps trying to get the upper hand, but instead, getting your head bashed in too, but maybe not so bad that you can't see what happens next, as the attacker then kills someone you love. I'll bet, as you are laying bleeding on the ground, you are not thinking how great it is you weren't allowed to have a gun. No, I'll bet you are not thinking that at all.

sh1t!!

Safe to say it's probably not the best idea for me to describe or even hint at what I'd do if I saw this happen to a loved one!!

[Stratman]

Get your quotes right. I never said anything at all, I merely did a "+1) to pinkyfloyd's post. I am quite capable of formulating my own words thank you and don't need others to put them in my mouth!

I WILL repeat though something that Ben Elton said many years ago. There should be one question on a gun licence application "Do you want to own a gun?". If the answer is "yes" then you can't have one.

Of course people can run amok with a kitchen knife, a baseball bat or whatever, but the consequences of this spree with a gun is just so much worse and the only purpose of a gun is to kill or injure, unlike the kitchen knife or baseball bat.

[pinkyfloyd]

Get your quotes right. I never said anything at all, I merely did a "+1) to pinkyfloyd's post. I am quite capable of formulating my own words thank you and don't need others to put them in my mouth!

Yup, was all my fault. I did not comment on the post beneath it as I am above that kind of nonsense.

Guy buy a knife and stab someone? I mean really.

[rz_racer_69]

the only purpose of a gun is to kill or injure.

Interesting how you can be so wrong. The purpose of a gun is to propel a projectile at a high rate of speed, nothing more nothing less. It is a tool. There are other things that propel matter at a high rate of speed, bows, slingshots, motorcycles, rail guns (magnetism), my arm, rockets. All capable of killing someone, all capable of being used for something else (well, except maybe the railgun, lol).

It's laughable how when an example of a murderous individual taking someone's life with a bludgeon, all the anti-gun crowd can say is, thank God he didn't have a gun. Well thank God he didn't have a rapier, or hatchet, or a bag full of rocks too!

[rz_racer_69]

So what your saying is 2 wrongs make a right?

How is protecting myself and my family from murder ever wrong? That's a silly statement.

If you saw your son getting bashed then that gives you a right to shoot them?

It gives you the right to stop them. Have you ever heard the statement "Stop or I'll shoot"? The idea for an armed citizen is to be responsible, and protect life. Sometimes protecting life can get a little messy.

What gives you the moral high ground there? Oh but sir, he was going to kill me, mine, ours so I killed him so that makes me the better man.

I wouldn't say it's a moral high ground at all, or that I am a better man. I would say that I exercised my right to stop him when he exhibited intent to do grievous harm to someone in my proximity. Simple as that. If he died in the process of being shot (most don't, unlike what you see on TV) then so be it.

No sir, I disagree.

That is fantastic! It's interesting to hear your opinion.

So what gives you, with a gun, supporting the right to carry guns, the higher ground to say its OK for you to take a life?

I don't. I only have the right to stop someone from taking mine (or somebody around me)

I can see no place in a modern society where it is acceptable for someone to carry around legally the means to take another humans life.

Do you honestly believe someone needs a gun to take another's life? It's a violent world out here. All someone needs is a pair of hands to kill someone. Happens all the time. Even an untrained person can beat a weaker opponent to death, whereas a trained individual can be very deadly.

[Wicky]

I only have the right to stop someone from taking mine (or somebody around me)....All someone needs is a pair of hands to kill someone.

So why do need a gun when unarmed combat is effective you say - and IIRC one of the first principles of Martial arts is avoid a fight and defuse a situation unless absolutely necessary and forced into a corner. Then If escape, dissuasion, and posturing fail, and you ,as a reasonable and prudent person, believe you are about to be attacked can then move onto defending yourself.

Otherwise its to easy ;-)

[youtube][/youtube]

[marravtr]

go buy a knife and stab someone then

Or beat them with a bat.

Just heard this morning about a moron who freaked out in a McDonalds, went out to his car, got a baseball bat, came back in and bashed in the head of the manager, and then left, using his t-shirt to grab things so as not to leave fingerprints, he knew what he was doing. Now, do those of you who think guns are evil think baseball bats should be banned too? Do you think this manager, deserved to have his brains bashed in? What if he was your son, proud to have been promoted to manager, baby on the way, trying to make ends meet, now gone, due to a psychopath. What if you were there visiting your son, and getting a cup of coffee, and saw the whole thing unfolding. What then? What would you do? You just going to stand by and watch your son get killed by a cold blooded murderer, or are you going to jump into the fight perhaps trying to get the upper hand, but instead, getting your head bashed in too, but maybe not so bad that you can't see what happens next, as the attacker then kills someone you love. I'll bet, as you are laying bleeding on the ground, you are not thinking how great it is you weren't allowed to have a gun. No, I'll bet you are not thinking that at all.

if i had a gun i'd shoot the fecker, but as its england i'd just have to disarm him with the aid of words! failing that gouge his eyes out with the nearest spork!

[rz_racer_69]

I only have the right to stop someone from taking mine (or somebody around me)....All someone needs is a pair of hands to kill someone.

So why do need a gun when unarmed combat is effective you say - and IIRC one of the first principles of Martial arts is avoid a fight and defuse a situation unless absolutely necessary and forced into a corner.

Avoiding the fight is always the best choice. Being physically fit and able to fend off an attacker is a good thing too, but not always possible. I reckon there are a very few people with enough training and strength to fend off a bat wielding maniac with their bare hands. Personally, I am getting too old to be getting into fights with maniacs.

[pinkyfloyd]

Without the risk of sounding like a troll I will entertain the American with his "Its my constitutional right to arm bears," Or bear arms. Whatever.

Here in the UK guns are illegal and according to government sources they make up a massive 1% of all crime.

Is there really a gun problem in the UK?
Incidents involving guns make up less than one per cent of the total number of crimes committed in the UK every year.
What is worrying is the relatively large number of young people who say they carry real or fake handguns to protect themselves. In fact you’re more likely to be a victim of gun crime if you carry a gun yourself.

Taken from the Direct Government Website.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeople ... G_10027654

Now lets compare that to the USA where everybody and their dog has the right to arm bears.

According to FBI figures released the chart looks a bit like this:


Taken from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... e-us-state
Using FBI tables released.

Even with my screwed up maths I can see that over 67% of all murders in America was caused by guns. Judging by my dodgy maths it works out at per 100K people you have just over 4% armed robbery crime and over 4% assault with a fire arm.

I'm not great at maths but even I can look at that and work out that overall America has more gun related crime than the 1% we have in the UK.
Surely theres a reason for this. One could argue that there is more population in America but then that still makes out a higher percentage of people involved with gun crime. No matter what way you fold it the fact that America has a constitutional right to bear arms, means that they have a much higher gun related crime rate.

That in itself is justification for the UK to keep guns illegal.

I'll wrap it up by repeating what it says in the UK quote.

In fact you’re more likely to be a victim of gun crime if you carry a gun yourself.

[rz_racer_69]

People will use the tools that are available to them. There's no question that there is more gun crime here, where guns are easily obtainable. Obviously, if all the guns were to suddenly disappear, so would gun crime. How does that help our unfortunate friend at McDonalds? Guns are tools. The crimes will continue, with or without them.