1997 Rebuild gone bad

Need advice on which oil to use or which tyre best suits you? Share your topic and get help here.
quarterback
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 am

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by quarterback »

Thanks Folks,

I'll update as I go - not likely to get looked at for the next month due to going to the USA to ride East to West...however, I'd like to get it to the Isle of Man in June....so I'll need to be reasonably swift if I'm to prove it's reliable etc!

Craig
quarterback
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 am

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by quarterback »

Time to resurrect this...

At my wits end. Finished the rebuild, got the bike MOT'd and got a few enjoyable miles on it last summer.

It's always been really difficult to start, making out like it has a weak battery - engine turning slowly etc. General struggles to fire on its own without a booster in the morning, but once it's run for about 30 seconds, can start and stop all day off its own battery with no issues.

So far I have:
1) Replaced starter lead
2) Replaced starter
3) Cleaned earth points
4) Tried multiple known good batteries
5) Installed lithium battery
6) Replaced reg/rec
7) Replaced starter relay
8) Confirmed cam chains aren't too tight (bearing in mind I'd to repair the valves after a CCT failure)

I've pretty much run out of ideas as to where I'm going wrong and don't want to give up as the bike puts a massive smile on my face when it's working...and a massive frown when it's not.

Anyone got words of wisdom for me?

Thanks in advance

Craig
User avatar
sirch345
Site Admin
Posts: 21669
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:35 pm
Location: The West Country.

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by sirch345 »

Hi Craig, So basically once you have got the first start-up of the day out of the way everything else is working as it should be, when ticking over and when riding it out on the road :?:

Uploading a video of it trying to do it’s first start up of the day might help,

Chris
quarterback
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 am

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by quarterback »

As far as I can feel....yes. I've probably stuck about 300 miles on it, so I think serious mechanical failures would have presented themselves by now. (I hope!)

I'll grab a video and upload it.

Thanks for your response!

Craig
User avatar
Kev L
Posts: 11209
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:57 pm
Location: Hertford, England

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by Kev L »

Were the starter/lead new or overhauled when you installed them?
The symptoms you describe sound like you would associate with the starter connection having corrosion or a poor connection!
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
F3, 954 USD front, K Tech springs, Braced swinger, Penske shock, Six spoke Mockesini wheels, Harris rearsets, QaT, Flywheel diet!, A&L stacks, stick coils, K&N, FP Ti jets, lashings of Ti & CF
User avatar
sirch345
Site Admin
Posts: 21669
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:35 pm
Location: The West Country.

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by sirch345 »

quarterback wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:00 pm As far as I can feel....yes. I've probably stuck about 300 miles on it, so I think serious mechanical failures would have presented themselves by now. (I hope!)

I'll grab a video and upload it.

Thanks for your response!

Craig
:thumbup: :thumbup:

Apart from what Kev says, the only thing I can think of so far is a parasitic drain on the battery over night.

Chris
tony.mon
Posts: 15943
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Norf Kent

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by tony.mon »

Kev L wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:14 am Were the starter/lead new or overhauled when you installed them?
The symptoms you describe sound like you would associate with the starter connection having corrosion or a poor connection!
Or the fibre insulating washers or plastic insulating sleeve on the starter connection bolt missing/degraded.
The video might help.

As an alternative, where are you based? One of us might be able to assist.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
User avatar
freeridenick
Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 1:30 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by freeridenick »

It's your lithium battery. At least that's my guess from experience. I rebuilt my bike last year. And the year before that. And before... Seems like I've been rebuilding it for years. Anyway, I got myself a tiny little UltraBatt battery (300CCA and 5ah) and it started perfectly late August. For various reasons I didn't get around to the MOT until October and it wouldn't start. Jumped it and got the MOT but had to get a jump there before leaving. It started twice during the test just fine. Since then it's been a pig to start, causing no end of stress.

It's been under cover over winter, in disgrace, but I've been reading up and checking electronics. It's not the charging system, the starter is fine, fuel and fuelling was off but I could only start it off a car battery. So, long story short:
Lithium batteries don't like the cold. The electrons don't move as freely, or something like that. They can be encouraged (warmed up) by leaving the headlight on for a few minutes before starting.
The lower ah of lithium batteries means they can flatten quickly if the bike doesn't start. Especially if, like mine, they have a discharge protection circuit which basically kills the battery for a while to stop it discharging too much. This was why I thought I had all sorts of issues but it was just the battery being too small. I also think the short urban ride to the test centre wasn't enough to charge the battery after repeated starting attempts, hence the dead battery at the MOT.
CCA seems a bit of a wild west in terms of claims. At least that's my feeling. The UltraBatt units can be connected in series so I've now got two of the buggers and, allegedly, 600CCA. Hopefully it'll turn it over fast enough for it to catch quickly and avoid problem no2.

The last two points aren't really relevant to you, but I think your cold starting is simply the cold weathe and your battery. I'm waiting for the weather to warm up a little and for my carbs to be ultrasonically cleaned before I give mine another go. I'm optimistic though.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

tony.mon
Posts: 15943
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Norf Kent

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by tony.mon »

Nick, did you mean you could connect two batteries in parallel?
Two in series would give 24 volts...

On a little 250 cafe racer I built years ago, I used two tiny 6v batteries in series to give 12 volts. I removed the electric start so didn't require the starting amperage., and it was easier to package than one larger 12v one.
Last edited by tony.mon on Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
User avatar
freeridenick
Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 1:30 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by freeridenick »

tony.mon wrote:Nick, did you mean you could connect two batteries in parallel?
Two in series would give 24 volts...

On a little 250 cafe racer I built years ago, I used two tiny 6v batteries in series to give 12 volts. I removed the electric start so didn't require the staring amperage., and it was easier to package than one larger 12v one.
Sorry. Yes in parallel.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

quarterback
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 am

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by quarterback »

Hi Nick,

I'm not convinced it is the lithium battery as the symptoms persist with a known good AGM battery, but very odd that regardless of the battery fitted, as soon as you attach a jump pack, away it goes, but also more than happy to be wrong!

For reference, the AGM battery being used is a Motobatt HD - slightly higher specced than the OEM, but not by a whole load.

Finally got down to my lock up today to get some photos/footage.



Photos of starter terminal attached to this post.

For reference, this video was shot on the fully charged AGM battery.

Not sure if the video throws up any pointers...I'm really hoping I'm missing something obvious!
Attachments
20240225_130713.jpg
20240225_130705.jpg
tony.mon
Posts: 15943
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Norf Kent

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by tony.mon »

The only other part of the circuit is the earth lead, so check that there's no corrosion where it mounts to the rear of the engine.

Given your low compression and the improvement with oil in the bores it seems very likely that you need a rebore, new pistons and rings. That's not a big deal, and is easy enough if you have an engine stand - I use a Machine Mart one that allows me to rotate the engine to access the crankcase bolts above and below without wrestling the lump on a workbench.
I'd usually suggest going the extra mile and fitting higher compression pistons, but given the low turnover speed at stats, I'd get that problem sorted first.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
User avatar
sirch345
Site Admin
Posts: 21669
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:35 pm
Location: The West Country.

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by sirch345 »

Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works of Tony's reply, but when you did the compression test was the engine turning over at the right speed then? If not then you would get a low reading.

Have you fitted manual cam chain tensioners?

Chris.
tony.mon
Posts: 15943
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Norf Kent

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by tony.mon »

sirch345 wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:57 am Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works of Tony's reply, but when you did the compression test was the engine turning over at the right speed then? If not then you would get a low reading.

Have you fitted manual cam chain tensioners?

Chris.
Fair point, Chris, it could make a difference.
Best re-check before pulling the engine apart.

Either way, get the starter running properly first.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
quarterback
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 am

Re: 1997 Rebuild gone bad

Post by quarterback »

Hi folks.

I done the compression testing that long ago now that I can't remember whether I'd to put a booster on it or not. I do know I got very close to book spec.

With regards to MCCT - yeah, fitted them about 6 years ago. Bike was bought with smashed valves, so I hope to avoid repeating it!

I've cleaned up the earth point & bolt. Multimeter shows negligible resistance across the earth lead, but thinking that maybe I bridge straight to a different part of the engine with a jump lead to see if there's any difference.

Craig
Post Reply