juddering clutch

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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Red3446 »

AMCQ46 wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:51 pm was it both EBC clutch plates and EBC springs? and was it just new friction material?

Yes, I've bought them in kit on e-Bay
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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Red3446 »

I've spoke too early....the problem is still here! :(
At first sunny day the problem reoccurrs.....

Next step: as suggested by a Factory tecnitian I will try to replace clutch fluid and I'll recondition the clutch actuator.

I'll keep you informed soon! :wink:
jchesshyre
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by jchesshyre »

Did you double check that all plates, judder spring and judder spring seat are in the correct order?

I had this problem badly when I first got the bike, and found that they were in the wrong order, with a plate behind the judder spring & seat, which should be last at the back of the stack.

It still does it if I try and launch with lots of revs, but is now entirely usable.

I'm not sure if yours is the same problem though, as mine is (and was) worse when cold.
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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Red3446 »

jchesshyre wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:41 pm Did you double check that all plates, judder spring and judder spring seat are in the correct order?

I had this problem badly when I first got the bike, and found that they were in the wrong order, with a plate behind the judder spring & seat, which should be last at the back of the stack.

It still does it if I try and launch with lots of revs, but is now entirely usable.

I'm not sure if yours is the same problem though, as mine is (and was) worse when cold.
Oh god...I'm quite sure yes.....

....thinking better....YES, i'm sure! :lol:

Anyway yes, the problem is worse when hot. When the engine is cold no problem!
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Wicky
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Re: juddering clutch

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Red3446 wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:49 pm It's a very strange behaviour....and I'm a little bit disappointed that I cannot use low rpms with the V-Twin.
.....I've to invent something, I cannot accept this problem, I've to solve it! :twisted: :twisted:
Don't lug it in high gear & low revs and expect it to pull cleanly - use the supplied gears. When very torquey electric bikes become commonplace with 1 gear and no gearbox / clutch then it will be feasible to haul around without juddering.
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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jchesshyre
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by jchesshyre »

Have you checked chain tension and alignment?
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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Red3446 »

Wicky wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:05 pm
Red3446 wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:49 pm It's a very strange behaviour....and I'm a little bit disappointed that I cannot use low rpms with the V-Twin.
.....I've to invent something, I cannot accept this problem, I've to solve it! :twisted: :twisted:
Don't lug it in high gear & low revs and expect it to pull cleanly - use the supplied gears. When very torquey electric bikes become commonplace with 1 gear and no gearbox / clutch then it will be feasible to haul around without juddering.
It's clear that I cannot expect an "electric" power supply from this engine, but I should be able to use torque at low rpms, important in a V-twin. :wink:

This juddering is caused by clutch slipping. When it slips at low rpm it judders too...
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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Red3446 »

jchesshyre wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:18 pm Have you checked chain tension and alignment?
Yes, it's all ok! :wink:
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by jchesshyre »

Hmmm strange. I hope you find the cause soon and will be interested to read what it is!
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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

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jchesshyre wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:56 am Hmmm strange. I hope you find the cause soon and will be interested to read what it is!
:thumbup: :thumbup: :wave:
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by jchesshyre »

Just to clarify a few more things...

When you say low revs, what revs specifically are we talking about? These bikes don't much like full throttle below 3000rpm in most gears. Although the engine is a twin, it has a short stroke and so is not meant to be ridden like a Harley or other long-stroke, low-revving twin bike. The 'twins like low revs' is a relative term - yes the Firestorm uses lower revs for any given speed than an equivalent short-stroke inline-4, but still needs to be spinning a certain amount (i.e. above 3000rpm - some twins make their peak torque at this speed whereas the Firestorm's peak torque is around 7000rpm).

And when this happens, is it as you release the clutch when pulling away or is it when you accelerate, with the clutch already fully engaged (i.e. not actually whilst 'using' the clutch)?
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Wicky
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Wicky »

jchesshyre wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:08 am ... like a Harley or other long-stroke, low-revving twin bike.
Even Harley's suffer from over lugging >
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by Red3446 »

jchesshyre wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:08 am Just to clarify a few more things...

When you say low revs, what revs specifically are we talking about? These bikes don't much like full throttle below 3000rpm in most gears. Although the engine is a twin, it has a short stroke and so is not meant to be ridden like a Harley or other long-stroke, low-revving twin bike. The 'twins like low revs' is a relative term - yes the Firestorm uses lower revs for any given speed than an equivalent short-stroke inline-4, but still needs to be spinning a certain amount (i.e. above 3000rpm - some twins make their peak torque at this speed whereas the Firestorm's peak torque is around 7000rpm).

And when this happens, is it as you release the clutch when pulling away or is it when you accelerate, with the clutch already fully engaged (i.e. not actually whilst 'using' the clutch)?
I can accept that an engine like this doen't like to run il lower rpm (like 2500 or less) end the engine is "rough", but the clutch cannot slips and judder. Sometimes it happens also at 3000/4000 rpm during pickup and in my opinion it's unacceptable. The only way to avoid this is to accelerate very slowly.
This is an engine that wants to run in middle range, 4000/5000 and more but it must to pickup also form 3000 without clutch slips.....ad it happens with clutch already fully engaged! :wink:
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fabiostar
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Re: juddering clutch

Post by fabiostar »

pull the clutch apart again, somethings not been put together wright??.... mine took a habbit of slipping with new plates,,, i pulled it apart, and this goes against all the manuals but when i put it together again, the two outside plates that sit in different grooves from the other plates? i only located the outside one differently and tried that and it worked fine, tho i had no juddering at all

did i miss if you have changed the steel plates aswell?
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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Red3446
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Re: juddering clutch

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fabiostar wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:51 pm pull the clutch apart again, somethings not been put together wright??.... mine took a habbit of slipping with new plates,,, i pulled it apart, and this goes against all the manuals but when i put it together again, the two outside plates that sit in different grooves from the other plates? i only located the outside one differently and tried that and it worked fine, tho i had no juddering at all

did i miss if you have changed the steel plates aswell?
All discs are installed as shown in the shop manual, included the outer disc that has been installed in the secondary dedicated groove. Also steel plates are new. :wink:

Yesterday I replaced the clutch fluid with no results, today I'll remove the whole clutch to perform all possible verifications.
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