Known Cam Specs

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Ace VenTRa
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Known Cam Specs

Post by Ace VenTRa »

I have not made this chart interactive yet and some of the #'s are a little suspect only because I have not measured them myself. On the bottom of the list I advanced the oem cam timing to simulate events with an adjustable gear just so you can see how it is that we can make our oem cams perform a bit differently. Feel free to comment so I can update with better data. If anyone wants to share a dyno sheet I'd love to start charting HP& TQ numbers so people can get an idea with real data what their bike will do and at what RPM range.
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Roger Ditchfield
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Roger Ditchfield »

The Kent re-profiled cam quoted figures are for HON21 profile which is used on SPs/RC51 not VTR1000F. The VTR1000F profile is HON19 which is obviously different.
Roger Ditchfield
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Roger Ditchfield »

I am unsure what this exercise is trying to achieve.
All aftermarket cams are run in conjunction with a whole variety of other mods such as P&G and/or skimmed heads, OEM air box mods and/or alternative boxes, different air filters, different jet kits, different exhaust combinations and many many more options. So it is virtually impossible to make a comparison.
If the exercise is to establish if there is any benefit from variable valve timing from slotted cam wheels on OEM cams on a completely OEM bike then I can tell you that the maximum improvement is 2bhp - 3bhp @ R/wheel
tony.mon
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by tony.mon »

Agree, Roger.
It would be great if cumulative gains could be achieved, for example +8bhp with high comp pistons +4bhp with a jet kit gave everyone who did those mods +12bhp, but everything is interdependent and, of course, each engine has its own set of tolerances.

It's always interesting to read about an owner's journey, but the results aren't always transferable.

And far too often people change several things at once!
You never know for sure what is a positive change and what was negative unless you do one thing at a time, measuring and evaluating each one separately.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
Roger Ditchfield
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Roger Ditchfield »

I completely agree with Tony. It would be helpful to members to have a BHP increase for various levels of tune but in practice it is impossible and therefore a chart becomes meaningless. The development programme of the VTR1000f by Revolution Racing in 1997/98 was sponsored partially by HRC, Moriwaki and our own team sponsors. We were able to work through the bike item by item to see how it could be improved for racing purposes, some tests to destruction, and the results was fed back to HRC. The ultimate result was the Stage3 BSB Superbike raced in 1999 which produced 152bhp @ R/wheel and I doubt if that will ever be reproduced today.
Members who ask me about upgrading their bike receive an approximate bhp improvement for each package level of upgrade which is based on previously achieved results by Revolution built engines.
tony.mon
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by tony.mon »

Ace, please don't think this is negative, as said, it's always interesting to see what a builder can achieve.
Let's see where your journey goes.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
Ace VenTRa
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Ace VenTRa »

No offense taken...the point of the exercise is to get the hard data on paper and compare results because there is a lack of hard data and or results. Regarding cam timing changes... I think that having the events listed is a very good idea because they are what make the cams do what they do. I'm not necessarily looking for peak numbers either, that's a bit of a rabbit hole. What I'm looking for is driveability, reliability, topend power, bottom end power, throttle response etc... I know exactly what the factory cams do, and now I know what my custom grind does. By advancing or retarding either I will know what effect that has on both of them from that data we can extrapolate what another grind may or may not do. If you recall I posted some homegrown flow numbers to determine what lift is necessary and or effective for a stock head. Turns out the factory lift and duration are pretty danged close to optimum because after .300 lift those heads level off very quickly with stock valve sizes. Now I don't know about anyone else but that satisfies a curiosity that I have and that's basically it. But it is nice to look back and see what I did that worked or didn't...maybe I'm naive but I expect other people on a forum for VTR's might have an interest in that as well, otherwise it's all guess work. What's really cool is that Roger pokes around occasionally and makes a comment or two...eventually he'll slip up and reveal some of the hard numbers that got he and Bob to the impressive numbers, hopefully...if he knows them... If not that's cool too. I have motor number 2 being built on my bench as we speak and it's getting the works without going over board.

AV
Roger Ditchfield
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Roger Ditchfield »

I have all the numbers and dyno charts for scores of development steps right through to the final raced bikes of ST2 and ST3 as well as the development of ST1.
As this development work was sponsored by HRC and Moriwaki all the details were returned to them as we progressed and it would be unethical for me to release all this detailed information. There was two years development work on a "seven day a week" basis to achieve the final results. So there is plenty of work to be done by someone walking this already well trodden road. The cost of this development work of the VTR Firestorm was in excess of £60k with all parts provided for free by the sponsors. The subsequent development of the SP1 cost in excess of £80K. Good Luck to them!
Ace VenTRa
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Ace VenTRa »

With all due respect I believe you have an ethical responsibility to the members of this forum and others. The V has long been out of production and racing and I am certain that HRC could not possibly care less about it. To the point of technical data, you could certainly provide more than you have so far and save everyone a lot of headache... not that I mind doing the grunt work....but in the spirit of sportsmanship I would release data as I discover it hoping that someone will check my work and call me on my BS and hold me accountable. To that point, I never exactly reveal what I find, but I certainly give hints and nudges that would be of immense help to someone traveling the same path. In fact what I've done is copied and pasted all of your posts into a compendium, minus the irrelevant chit chat of course, so that I have a quick guide to turn to. I've added my own findings and those of others who willingly share all that they know and eagerly await all that you have to offer which I'm certain will happen soon.

AV
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MacV2
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by MacV2 »

Ace VenTRa wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:30 pm With all due respect I believe you have an ethical responsibility to the members of this forum and others. The V has long been out of production and racing and I am certain that HRC could not possibly care less about it. To the point of technical data, you could certainly provide more than you have so far and save everyone a lot of headache... not that I mind doing the grunt work....but in the spirit of sportsmanship I would release data as I discover it hoping that someone will check my work and call me on my BS and hold me accountable. To that point, I never exactly reveal what I find, but I certainly give hints and nudges that would be of immense help to someone traveling the same path. In fact what I've done is copied and pasted all of your posts into a compendium, minus the irrelevant chit chat of course, so that I have a quick guide to turn to. I've added my own findings and those of others who willingly share all that they know and eagerly await all that you have to offer which I'm certain will happen soon.

AV
With all due respect, I for one am not in the slightest intrested in your drivle... Roger has absolutly no ethical responsibility to give up his info full stop. Time to give up me thinks...
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
Roger Ditchfield
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by Roger Ditchfield »

I have always tried to help members of this Forum wherever possible often above and beyond the requested level. It is clear that Ace has absolutely no idea what integrity and ethics means to the Japanese people. I value my reputation in Japan that has been built up over forty years and I am the UK Importer of Moriwaki parts and the only engine builder outside Japan that than use the name of Moriwaki in by engine builds. I am also in touch with HRC and consulted from time to time over certain racing issues. Furthermore, my business of Revolution Racing is still operating as an engine and suspension tuner of several Japanese manufacturers' products and certain information is still commercially sensitive. The knowledge I have built up, at huge financial cost, over fifty years of racing is something I am under no obligation to share with anyone. The Revolution Racing VTRs were the fastest and most reliable produced by anyone else in the World equal to the Moriwaki factory bikes. My personal ethical reputation and integrity is paramount to me and I will do nothing to jeopardise it. If members of this Forum feel that I am being uncooperative and obstructive I am happy to withdraw from this Forum. I wish Ace every success with his journey of exploration.
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MacV2
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by MacV2 »

Roger Ditchfield wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:47 pm I have always tried to help members of this Forum wherever possible often above and beyond the requested level. It is clear that Ace has absolutely no idea what integrity and ethics means to the Japanese people. I value my reputation in Japan that has been built up over forty years and I am the UK Importer of Moriwaki parts and the only engine builder outside Japan that than use the name of Moriwaki in by engine builds. I am also in touch with HRC and consulted from time to time over certain racing issues. Furthermore, my business of Revolution Racing is still operating as an engine and suspension tuner of several Japanese manufacturers' products and certain information is still commercially sensitive. The knowledge I have built up, at huge financial cost, over fifty years of racing is something I am under no obligation to share with anyone. The Revolution Racing VTRs were the fastest and most reliable produced by anyone else in the World equal to the Moriwaki factory bikes. My personal ethical reputation and integrity is paramount to me and I will do nothing to jeopardise it. If members of this Forum feel that I am being uncooperative and obstructive I am happy to withdraw from this Forum. I wish Ace every success with his journey of exploration.
Well said Roger.

Apart from Mr Ace, I think I speak for the other members, we would not wish for you to leave the forum.

Mr Ace on the other hand I really don't think would be missed.
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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AMCQ46
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by AMCQ46 »

Roger Ditchfield wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:47 pm If members of this Forum feel that I am being uncooperative and obstructive I am happy to withdraw from this Forum. I wish Ace every success with his journey of exploration.
Roger, I can reiterate what Mac has said. it will be a bad day for this forum if we lost you. You have helped many and always drawn a very fair ethical line in what you publish and what advice you share in a phone call.
Last edited by AMCQ46 on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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uk13iker
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by uk13iker »

[quote="Ace VenTRa"]With all due respect I believe you have an ethical responsibility to the members of this forum

What a ridiculous sentence, as roger mentioned the money involved with developing the engines from sponsors etc whilst also being his living, reputation at stake why would he divulge such information regardless if it was 40 years ago he owes this forum nothing we don’t put food on his table or contribute towards his bills the guys in business which takes so long to build a reputation and can be ruined so quickly.


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tony.mon
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Re: Known Cam Specs

Post by tony.mon »

Why would you give away trade-sensitive information and break confidentiality?
I've always found Roger very helpful and knowledgeable.
You might as well ask someone to build your engines for free!

Stick around, Roger, one bad apple and all....
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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