Firestorm brakes

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jchesshyre
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Firestorm brakes

Post by jchesshyre »

I know from reading posts on here that the general consensus is that the brakes on these bikes are not the best Honda have ever fitted, and that while capable of pretty good power they need a hard pull to achieve this and often lack initial bite.

Why actually is this? Is it to do with the ratio in sizes between the master cylinder and pistons? If so why would Honda have designed them like this? Same reason they fitted useless CCT lifters?

I changed my pads to EBC HH (previously I've used OEM ones) and overhauled my calipers and MC again recently and they're not bad and certainly don't lack power, but nevertheless the two-piston single-disc brakes (Brembo) with EBC HH pads on my '97 CB500 still feel much, much better in more or less every way, which is frankly ridiculous. My previous '94 CB500 had Nissin brakes and these were also better.

Is there *anything* that can be done to improve things without installing different calipers?

*edit* I also have HEL braided hoses fitted, the ones with a full separate hose for each caliper.
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agentpineapple
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by agentpineapple »

maintained properly with braided lines, and std brakes aren't that bad.
there are options to upgrade to blade/sp calipers with matching m/c.
there are plenty of options.
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jchesshyre
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by jchesshyre »

Yeah I did notice some very slight pitting on some of the pistons when I changed them last...am I right in thinking that opposed-piston calipers are more sensitive to this than sliding calipers? I've had to replace pistons in my CB's caliper over the years but it just caused slight binding but without any significant loss of feel/sensitivity in the brakes.

I'm thinking of going for the caliper exchange service that Powerhouse UK offer. For a stripped and refurbished set of calipers it's £140 if I send my ones back to them, and I can't even find a set of pistons for much less than this (it's £270 for Honda ones!!) – the same people charge £120 for a set of stainless steel pistons, but I'd want to replace the seals as well so that would take it up to £160 anyway, so I think I may as well get nice shiny calipers at the same time.
mik_str
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by mik_str »

wasted my time typing a reply... carry on...
Last edited by mik_str on Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
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Beef
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by Beef »

I've fitted the CBR600F4I calipers and M/C, needed a little bit of meat taking off with my Dremmel to get the bottom bolt in (1mm approx.) They are a massive improvement over the Stom brakes. :thumbup:
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KermitLeFrog
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by KermitLeFrog »

Beef wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:26 am I've fitted the CBR600F4I calipers and M/C, needed a little bit of meat taking off with my Dremmel to get the bottom bolt in (1mm approx.) They are a massive improvement over the Stom brakes. :thumbup:
Wot he said.

Plus, it's probably a cheaper mod than rebuilding the existing brakes. I've fitted the calipers along with the MC and the difference is marked. Braided lines (which you already have) are essential.
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AMCQ46
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by AMCQ46 »

Have a look at the info in the workshop knowledge base. It covers a lot of These topics
AMcQ
jchesshyre
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by jchesshyre »

AMCQ46 wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:18 am Have a look at the info in the workshop knowledge base. It covers a lot of These topics
Yes I really should do this. I've had a look but not in massive detail.

I guess my reason for posting was really to see if anyone has since found a definitive answer for why the Firestorm brakes are a bit sh*t!
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MacV2
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by MacV2 »

jchesshyre wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:29 am
AMCQ46 wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:18 am Have a look at the info in the workshop knowledge base. It covers a lot of These topics
Yes I really should do this. I've had a look but not in massive detail.

I guess my reason for posting was really to see if anyone has since found a definitive answer for why the Firestorm brakes are a bit sh*t!
Cost... £, $, Yen...

Simple maths really the higher cost of the bits at the factory end means added cost at the sales point...

Higher cost at sales point equals less sales....

A budget bike at a budget price.

Not built to win races like the SP was so make it cheaper & sell more.

So how to make the std ones better without changing callipers as per the origional question...

Braided hoses will be much better than the origional 20year old rubber ones, as your changing them fresh brake fluid will help as well.

Whilst you have the fluid out & lines off you may as well go the whole hog & strip & clean the callipers, pull the pistons & seals out, clean & inspect, replace if ness.

Rebuild with pads of your choice, there are plenty out there & people with have diffrent opinions... Some say OEM pads, others will swear by EBC. Others Brembo, Goldfren ect ect the list is a long one, unless you try different pads back to back you wont know...Any new pads compared to the old pads you have fitted will always feel better...

SBS come with a recommendation from Jonesey the Master Breaker, who knows a thing or two about these things...

On my commuter clonker I run std callipers, with braided hoses, std m/c & at the moment have an unknown brand of pads in, they were laying around & had plenty of meat on them so went in...they are blue & could possibly be Bendix but I just dont know... :lol: They work tho so all is good.

Commutor clunker, when I'm at work does 350miles a week, March/ April the callipers are swaped for a freshly refurbed set after the winter. The removed ones are split & cleaned, put back in stock & then swapped back in winter so i have a fresh set for the asault of the rain & road salt to come...

Having said all that obviously if your not confident with stripping a set of callipers then don't touch them ! Quite an important bit of kit you dont want to fek up really...However there are plenty of Bods on here who can do it...
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
jchesshyre
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by jchesshyre »

Thanks Mac, yeah I'm fine stripping calipers etc. I've actually decided to order a set of stainless steel pistons from Powerhouse UK.

How do you manage to stop the pistons getting pitted when riding through winter?

I know the brakes were built to a budget, but so were my CB500's (more so even) and yet they feel way better even when in need of a refurb - why??
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Cadbury64
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by Cadbury64 »

It is just my opinion, but I think Mr Honda erred on the size match between the master and caliper pistons, in that the master is too small a diameter, giving a bit of a grabby feel to the brakes.

If you compare the ratio of areas, the VTR has a slave: master area ratio of 33.2, vs the 954 or SP2 which have a ratio of 25.2. A 600F4i master would change that ratio to 25.9, and I know the 954 brakes I have are close to perfect with that ratio.

I have no actual experience with the 600F4 master/VTR calipers, but it seems like a good idea to me.
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tony.mon
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by tony.mon »

Bear in mind your 500 commuter is lighter, so will always seem different
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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MacV2
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by MacV2 »

jchesshyre wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:14 pm Thanks Mac, yeah I'm fine stripping calipers etc. I've actually decided to order a set of stainless steel pistons from Powerhouse UK.

How do you manage to stop the pistons getting pitted when riding through winter?

I know the brakes were built to a budget, but so were my CB500's (more so even) and yet they feel way better even when in need of a refurb - why??

I can't but strip & clean keeps the worse off so they don't get a chance to get too bad.
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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fabiostar
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by fabiostar »

by the time firstorms came along honda had been using those calipers on all sorts of bikes, early blades, 400s of all sorts so they had kinda run there course, but they had shed loads left so they bunged them onto the firestorm to use them up.. bit of a parts bin special really..
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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sirch345
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Re: Firestorm brakes

Post by sirch345 »

jchesshyre wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:34 pm I know from reading posts on here that the general consensus is that the brakes on these bikes are not the best Honda have ever fitted, and that while capable of pretty good power they need a hard pull to achieve this and often lack initial bite.

Why actually is this? Is it to do with the ratio in sizes between the master cylinder and pistons? If so why would Honda have designed them like this? Same reason they fitted useless CCT lifters?

I changed my pads to EBC HH (previously I've used OEM ones) and overhauled my calipers and MC again recently and they're not bad and certainly don't lack power, but nevertheless the two-piston single-disc brakes (Brembo) with EBC HH pads on my '97 CB500 still feel much, much better in more or less every way, which is frankly ridiculous. My previous '94 CB500 had Nissin brakes and these were also better.

Is there *anything* that can be done to improve things without installing different calipers?

*edit* I also have HEL braided hoses fitted, the ones with a full separate hose for each caliper.
For you to get a true comparison of how good your brakes are on both bikes you would need to do a test on a private road, plus as Tony points out, the difference in weight of the two bikes would need to be taken into consideration as well. Just because your CB500 felt like the brakes were better that may not in reality be the case. PB magazine proved this in a test that AMcQ46 posted here:- viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15494#p123361

Personally, slight pitting on the pistons wouldn't bother me unless they were causing damage to the seals making them leak. Although new pistons would be the best option I agree.

**EDIT**
Out of interest how many turns can you get from the front wheel (when it's suspended) when you give it a hard spin with your hand now with the serviced calipers and new Hel brake lines :?:

Chris.
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