VTR Down Under

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Twitchy
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:09 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. Yesterday idle sat sweet on 1500.

- Broken choke fitting was me, however I will check the boot staying in place over the fitting, may fit a small cable tie for security.
- The 'carb fart' is noticeable at 2000, but bloody obvious at 3000rpm, and actually misses/dies every 1.5 to 2 seconds or so. Quite regular.
- I put brand new Iridium plugs in, but will get some stuff this week to service the K&N air filter.

Carbtune carb sync brass fittings are hopefully a week away, and will pull carbs off then and also fit thumb screws from Jack Flash over at the SH forum. I will eyeball the carbs as much as possible without pulling them apart. Will reset thumb screws at 2 turns out front and rear as suggested.
And need to find an ohmmeter to check/reset the TPS.

Until then not much I can do (sick of waiting on international shipping :thumbdown: )

Actually, I can build a carb sync tool.......
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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Twitchy
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:35 pm

Ok guys, got an update. Received Carbtune vacuum takeoffs and thumb type fuel screws. This weekend I pulled the carbs off, installed the vac takeoff and plumbing for the permanent carb sync setup, installed the thumb screws at 2 turns out as recommended. I als ochecked the operation of the s.e. valve (choke) at the carby end, and fitted cable ties to help secure the rubber boot. Carbs reinstalled and started ok. And also knocked up a basic manometer to balance the carbs.

Now here is where I need help. Carbs seem to balance up ok at 1800ish rpm. But the fuel screws..... Playing with the rear screw barely makes any difference to the fast idling, but due to what I can only describe as a lumpy idle, it is very difficult to pick the ideal high point - the 'crisp' exhaust note as described in the carb tuning thread. A couple of things that did occur while playing with the fuel screws, at the 2 turns out, there is a definite, long hangup when blipping the throttle (too lean apparently). Winding the screw out a bit at a time, by the time it didnt hangup, it backfired through the carb. By this time I was getting a bit frustrated, so called it a day.

Any advice or suggestions would be much appreciated, thanks guys.
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:56 am

A picture paints a thousand words..........
Front carb showing Carbtune vac takeoff and Jack Flash thumb screw;
Image

Rear carb thumb screw;
Image

Permanent carb sync lines;
Image

My ultra budget manometer (about $8 at large hardware chain);
Image
Last edited by Twitchy on Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:01 am

Now having a think about it, and a discussion this morning with a colleague, as you can probably tell from the pics I did the carb sync with airbox off, but intake stacks just pressed into the carbys. BUT..... I also tried to do the fuel screw setup like this as well - i.e. no airbox :?

So maybe I need to double check the sync, and then pop the air box back on before fiddling with the fuel screws. Made sense as soon as he said it :Wall:
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:39 pm

Ok, so I'm thinking again... in the world of carb tuning, starting from scratch, what do I do first - carb sync, fuel screws or TPS?

I am wondering if each problem is masking the effect of another shortfall. E.g. fuel screws not set right affecting sync, or TPS (which I have not checked yet) affecting fuel screw adjustment.

Also, would having the bike on a swingarm stand affect the tuning? Rear wheel is about 1.5" off the ground.

Thanks for any ideas.
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:13 am

UPDATE 29/6/2015; Set fuel screws back to where they were when I stripped the carbs, 2 1/8 front and 2 1/2 rear. Checked carb balance - all good. Set idle at 1300ish (waves around a bit). TPS checked in at 824 ohms, readjusted back to 497 ohms. Still get the misfire/surge whatever you want to call it up through the rev range as mentioned earlier, and no discernible difference in the shed on the swingarm pivot stand. Wound front fuel screw out 1/4 turn to see if it made a difference to the blip hangup thing. It did not, but I left it there anyway.

Apologies for long post, but trying to give as much information as possible;
A work colleague offered to shadow me out yesterday, as I'm still 6 weeks from my test. A nice cool day with temps in the high teens (degrees Celsius). Now taking the bike for a ride made things a bit clearer, but I am now more puzzled and frustrated than before. From the time we left home, constant, relentless misfiring. I will refer to it as a misfire because it feels more like the engine cutting out than surging. Basically the bike would do a slight nose dive as if getting off the throttle, and then pick up again as if engine cutting out for a split second, as opposed to surging which in my mind would pick up momentarily then return to normal.

Running things through my head while on the road, remembering things written here and SH forum, went down a gear thinking maybe my cruise revs were too low. The misfire didn't really change regularity of timing, but more aggressive misfire/surge (the 'nosedive' and return to normal would be more noticeable). But having said that, once we found some nice curves (bitumen ones), I just enjoyed actually being out on the road, and not noticed the issues so much. I guess I just got used to it and rode around the issues as they weren't overly invasive. About an hour into our ride, we cam to a 'T' junction, and we were to turn left. The usual procedure, slowly gear down to first, and then roll the last couple of metres (6 feet for you guys!), and the bike cut out. Not rough idle and stalled, cut out as if I had turned the key off. WTF?? Anyway, got it going again, turned left and headed into our intended destination town a few kms down the road. Pulled into the servo to top up and I checked my trip meter to see how my consumption was. 'Trip A' said 6.2km. Pressed the little button and Trip B said 6.2km. WTF is happening there?? Anyway, topped up, ran the bike to where the public loos were, stopped and had a leak and a sandwich, and checked the time on the bike screen. 0:14. Now that clock was fine when we left the house. Somehow when the bike cut out a few kms earlier (6.2 evidently), it lost all battery power, but managed to operate again.

While stopped having a break, I checked this forum on my phone, and read about the 'surging' and needing to lean the fuel a bit. So as instructed wound the thumb screws in 1/2 turn each. So now back to 1 3/4 front and 2 rear. Back on the bike and on the road. The misfire/surge is a bit worse. Pulled over near aforementioned 'T' junction and wound screws in about 1/3 more, and I believed it to be a surging as described. So now fuel screws are at roughly 1 3/8 front and 1 2/3 rear. When I turned the key back on to start the bike, the clock was at 0:02, like the bike had lost electrical power when I turned the key off. What the hell is going on here?? Moving on and the misfire/surge/cut out thing is even worse. Put up with it for ages and eventually pulled over and wound the screws back out about 1/2 turn as it was better (but not great) before. So now screws are roughly 1 7/8 front & 2 1/3 rear (done on the side of the road, so would need to check in the shed to see if my calcs are what is actual). It should be said the vibration through the bars was increasing as the changes had their effect.

Back on the road for the last stint. By now I just wanted to get home, I was getting a bit annoyed that nothing I did improved anything. Once on a highway section doing 100km/h, I had the bright idea to pull the choke out to see if I was running to rich or lean still. The choke had to be all the way out to make a difference, but the bike bogged right down with the choke out. Choke back in and it was fine. A few kms later tried it again. Again, bike bogged right down, just like getting off the throttle, and then picked up with the choke back in again. (Yeah I know, its not a choke!). Anyway, persisted with it all the way home despite the vibrations, seemingly worse in the right bar to the point it was difficult to unwrap my fingers to grab the brake lever. And I should mention the almost constant backfiring out the exhaust on each back off and gear down. Nice but gets on my nerve after a while.

So now you see why I am more frustrated and puzzled than 24 hours earlier. There seems to be a fuel screws/mixture issue, possible TPS issue (497 ohms not good for my bike?? - I have read of guys having their TPS at 430, some return theirs back to stock), and a potential electrical issue causing the bike to cut out, wiping out my trip meter and clock twice.

I have read on SH that the K&N air filter can cause issues with apparent misfiring/coughing at cruise speeds, so think I might buy a stock filter. And also think I might buy the standard jets/needles and epoxy up the 3rd slide hole. Maybe putting everything back to standard may help. From what I have read the K&N/Dynojet setup may be overkill for a daily machine.

It would be much appreciated if anyone could throw in their 2 bobs worth as I am scratching my head, not knowing where to start troubleshooting.
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

Salty Dog
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Salty Dog » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:39 am

You are certainly getting to know your bike Twitchy, good stuff.

When i got mine, i looked into all the engine mods, induction, jetting, filter, airbox mods, pipes, etc etc.
After everything i read, i decided to just leave it alone, as thats where a lot of people that went down the path, ended up back too.

I cant say i have ever suffered any Carb Farts, flat spots, or lack of power.
Doing the header pipe mod, was the only thing i decided to do, which made the power delivery more linear, and a lot free'er.

Now, i just ride it and enjoy it (which is the advise a few members told me to do from the get go)
If i want more power, i just hold it on longer :)

Sorry i cant add anything to help with your current situation mate.
Hope you get it sorted.
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NZSpokes
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by NZSpokes » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:16 am

Put a stock filter in.Bet the problem goes.

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VTRDark
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by VTRDark » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:12 pm

I also think you are too lean down low. It would be a good idea to try some 48 pilots. There's a few issues that I can see here. What needles are you running and how many lift holes are there in the slides. My suspicion is that you may have some Dynojet needles in there as you started with the two 180 mains which suggests a Dynojet kit. If you have now put 178 (or whatever it was) Keihin main jets in, then these are not designed to go with Dynojet needles. I am not saying you can't get it to work but your complicating things by mixing kits.

OK onto mixture, balancing and TPS. Always balance the carbs after any jet changes or mixture/idle adjustment, especially jet and/or needle changes. You should also be aware that adjusting the balance also affects the TPS reading as their both connected to the throttle plate/butterfly.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29429

You should also be aware that when adjusting the mixture/fuel screws this affects the idle speed which you will adjust accordingly. This also is connected to the throttle plates. So yes your right they are all kinda counteracting each other.

The way to do it is as follows. Adjust any jetting/needle height or whatever inside the carbies. I generally set the TPS to approx 500 while they are off too. Gives me a good starting point and it helps when adjusting the mixture. Carbs back on including stacks and filter/box (always fine tune with the airbox and filter in place). Balance carbs and then adjust the fuel mixture screws by ear.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14214#p238528

Yes 2 turns out or any other number of turns out quoted on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter, including Dynojets installation instructions is OK for a baseline the majority of time and it will get you out of trouble to get the bike running but it's not accurate. The downside is that doing it by ear requires not only practice but the experience gained from practising and getting to know your engine/bike. You cannot adjust the fuel mixture properly from letting the bike warm up to temp in the yard. Ideally it be should ridden first on a good hard run and brought up to temp. Saying that though, I do let it warm up in the yard first off all, adjust then go for a run and then come back and adjust again as necessary. I will then tweak things a little more after few more longer runs. Turning the revs up to 1500 is only masking over the problem. The bike should idle at 1200, blip the throttle and it should shoot up nice and crisp and fall back down to 1200 without any fluctuation of hesitation as the rev needle falls back down. I generally adjust mixture at around 1500, so start high, then I work my way down tweaking things right down so the bike will idle at around 300 without stalling/cutting out. Once I know the bike idles smoothly that low down I then turn my idle speed back up to where I want it. In my case 1000rpm. The manual recommends 1200. The tricky bit is knowing which carb to adjusts, front or rear. I tend to jump between the two. If you don't hear any drop in revs then it's likely that carbs jetting is too rich.

Because adjusting the fuel mixture has required fiddling with the idle speed this has now affected the throttle plate position and therefore the TPS reading so if you want to be really anal about things then you could go back and re-set the TPS and do another carb balance. I would do the carb balance first, then TPS. Don't forget a carb balance affects your idle speed too so you will likely readjust the idle back to 1200.

Any issues with the choke which technically is an enricher (as richens mixture) will give you problems. You will never get things right if this is faulty/sticking. I don't think it's necessary to zip tie the rubber on. It should hook over the lip nd be able to swivel around. Make sure you choke cable is run correctly too.

:beer:

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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:35 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. I have been considering putting the setup back to standard and working from there.

Carl, as listed on the first page of this thread, the internals have not changed. Standard 45 pilot jet, 180 (assuming DJ) main jet, and what appears to be the DJ needle, with the clip in the 4th slot from the top (and pretty sure there was a shim/washer under the clip - same on both carbs). When I stripped the carbs, the fuel screws were 2 1/8 front and 2 1/2 rear.

Was it 8541Hawk that wrote that 48 pilot with standard main jet and standard needle is more than enough, and works with aftermarket exhaust (I have Jardine high mounts)? Apparently thats what the HRC kit was when available. If Honda spend their considerable resources on R&D to get the bike right with reasonable emissions, and HRC spend their considerable resources tweaking what the factory does, who are we to argue?

I have a standard filter which I got with the bike. I shall install that and see how it acts in the shed. I have new intake boots (carb to engine) on the way from Japan as the rear one is not looking too good. Not sure if there is a leak there, but eliminating it anyway. Currently looking at Hollister Powersports at their jetting prices.

Also, any input on the electrical problems I mentioned? Seems odd for the bike to reset the trip meter and clock, just like it had lost all electrical power. I found a diagnostic checklist for the electrical system including reg/rec, so will play with that over the next few days.
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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VTRDark
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by VTRDark » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:03 pm

Was it 8541Hawk that wrote that 48 pilot with standard main jet and standard needle is more than enough, and works with aftermarket exhaust
It was indeed and it would make a good baseline to start from. FYI the majority of VTRs over here come with 48's as standard.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28922

If you need more info, lots more info on carbs :wink: See the following.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14214#p238565

With the dynojet kit I would run either two Dynojet 180 mains or go 180 front and 185 rear. Needles on the 4th clip down from the top (blunt end), standard VTR diaphragm springs and don't make the the third lift holes. 48 pilots with approx 2 turns out on the fuel mixture screws. And most importantly run this setup with a standard paper filter and you will be pretty much good to go. :thumbup:

As for the electrical problems I will have to go back through the thread as I either don't know anything about it or my memory is playing me up again.
Seems odd for the bike to reset the trip meter and clock
Is this a later model facelift Storm then with digital dash. I just thought of something else then. You may have a PAIR emissions system fitted. That wont help with all your playing with carbs.

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Salty Dog
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Salty Dog » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:10 pm

Twitchy wrote: Also, any input on the electrical problems I mentioned? Seems odd for the bike to reset the trip meter and clock, just like it had lost all electrical power. I found a diagnostic checklist for the electrical system including reg/rec, so will play with that over the next few days.
Mine does that often now.
Probably started doing it 6 months after i purchased the bike.
First i thought it was just because it sat in the garage too long between starts, causing a flatter than allowable Battery state.
Then when you go to crank the engine, the now massive current draw just deplets whatever it is that holds the Clock settings.

BUT..... I have since found, this can happen "mid ride".
You stop for a break, all is well, get back on the bike, try to start, and it acts like their is a flat battery.
Couple more press's of the starter button, and it spins up like normal and fires into life, but in doing so, your Clock is back to "0:00" again.

I'm thinking i have the dreaded Starter Motor problem in the making.
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Wicky
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Wicky » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:46 pm

Also, any input on the electrical problems I mentioned? Seems odd for the bike to reset the trip meter and clock, just like it had lost all electrical power
Check the battery terminals are clean and tight as they can vibrate loose giving intermittent cut outs.
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Cadbury64
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Cadbury64 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:57 am

Wicky wrote:
Also, any input on the electrical problems I mentioned? Seems odd for the bike to reset the trip meter and clock, just like it had lost all electrical power
Check the battery terminals are clean and tight as they can vibrate loose giving intermittent cut outs.
I had the same symptoms on my VFR800; cold starts were fine, but hot starts sounded like the starter was struggling and the clock would re-set. I put it down to an ageing battery, I replaced that and have never had the problem re-occur. I have got a voltmeter fitted and I knew there was no issue with charging.
1997 VTR1000F, 2009 ST1300

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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:29 am

Probably should follow up on Carls questions, the vac slides have 3 holes, the springs I am not sure if DJ or stock, and the needles are DJ with the clip in the 4th from the top. I am unsure what main jets are standard.

So the vac slide shown here has 1 lift hole;
http://www.superhawkforum.com/forums/mo ... kit-29537/

And checking the cross reference guide here;
http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=35272

1. I am unsure which main jets to get if getting genuine.
2. Using the DJ needle with the clip in the 4th hole from the top, do I need to shim it as with the standard? Or just leave it as is?
3. Is jetsrus.com a good place to source the parts?

So my shopping list consists of;
Main jets (to be advised by a more experienced member than myself)
#48 genuine pilot/slow jets x2
Vac slide (diaphragm) spring x2 (in case they are DJ)
Epoxy to block 1 or 2 holes per slide.

How does that sound?
06 VTR1000F Firestorm (SuperHawk) with Jardine RT One high mounts, PAIR removed, Jack Flash thumb screws.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

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