VTR Down Under

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sirch345
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by sirch345 »

Twitchy wrote: Left gauge is the front cylinder, right is rear. I did have to install flow restrictors (came with the gauges) to stop the bouncing needles, wound them out until the bouncing all but stopped but each restrictor was wound out slightly different which concerns me. Also when starting the bike the rear needle came up a lot slower than the front.
Could that be due to the rear restrictor being more restricted than the front one, seeing you had to adjust each restrictor slightly different, meaning it would take longer for the vacuum to operate the rear gauge than the front one :?:

Good to hear the update,

Chris.
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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy »

I also forgot to mention the popping on decel. Only from mid range mid throttle, other ranges zero. Have not touched the exhaust so must be a fueling/TPS thing. The decel popping would definitely alert traffic better when splitting, but reckon I might get a bit sick of it after a while.

Yesterday I lifted the carbs without removing fuel or coolant lines, shimmed the needles 1 shim (0.6mm) and reset the TPS to 494 ohms. I also trimmed about 3" off the front vac line to get the front and rear vac lines a similar length (had a chat to work colleague who gave me the gauges (mechanical engineer) about length of vac line affecting signal. He suggested the lines should be the same length for more accuracy). *The fuel screws are still on 1 3/4 front a 2 rear*. Warmed it up in the driveway and checked the balance. Originally I tried to set up my fluid manometer gauge but it kept pulling the fluid up the front carb side, made quick tweaks to level it off but it kept going up so shut off the bike, let it settle, start it again, and again it went high on the front. After 3 attempts I setup the needle gauges again, this time with different restrictors. I will say the restrictors are just a flow control valve. Started bike with the valves shut, slowly opened them up to 3 1/2 turns out where the needles sit nicely without bouncing around. I alternated between tweaking the balance and dropping the idle a touch in an attempt to not have it idling at 1500+. Got the balance done however I could not get it perfect, only about a half needle width difference (same difference as earlier photo). Close enough for the moment, and put the bike back together. Idling at about 1350-1400. *The fuel screws are still on 1 3/4 front a 2 rear*

Went for a quick blast in the afternoon, holding 5500rpm in 3rd, give a tug and holy crap that thing pulls well now! I had to actually hang on! Still the popping on mid rev decel, maybe slightly less than before. When stopping for the traffic lights, and clutching in to roll the last 3 or 4 metres, the idle went down to very close to 1000, and with my concern of the previously very regular clunk-die issues, I held it up around 1400rpm. When I got home I bumped the idle up a bit more and I will now need to recheck the TPS setting.

Will try and get it on the dyno next Monday or Tuesday.
06 VTR1000F; bits by Jack Flash, Erik Marquez & Jamie Daugherty. SP/954 front and SP2 rear in the works.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638
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Pete.L
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Pete.L »

Have you checked the exhaust gasket at the rear pipe about 40 cm away from the head. Because it's hidden by the swinging arm it often gets missed and it is the most common seal to go. It will give you lovely back fires on the decel when it's on the way out 8)
Good luck on the Dyno

Pete.l
My new ride is a bit of a Howler and I love to make her Squeal
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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy »

Pete.L wrote:Have you checked the exhaust gasket at the rear pipe about 40 cm away from the head. Because it's hidden by the swinging arm it often gets missed and it is the most common seal to go. It will give you lovely back fires on the decel when it's on the way out 8)
Good luck on the Dyno

Pete.l
BINGO! Doing a fuel screw adjustment and balance on Friday and heard a slight exhaust leak, and I reckon its the join in the swingarm. Guess I need to get exhaust seals in next Partzilla order!

Also, dyno today, and here is the result (100% throttle);
Image

Keihin 178 front and 182 rear mains. FP needles are middle clip plus 1x 0.6mm shim front & rear, 48 pilots, screws 1 7/8 front and 2 1/8 rear, TPS 499 ohms, idle around 1300rpm.
On the horsepower graph, the green line is the previous run hp figure - 102.68, and the red line just below it is todays hp figure - 100.23.
The AFR graph - the upper red line is todays run, probe in right hand can, the blue line is probe in right hand can, previous run. The lower red line is the left exhaust can, todays run.

So... I still have a sweet curve (more good luck than good management!). The dyno operator is suggesting the exhaust pulses may or may not blend in the joined section of exhaust, so take an average of the left and right AFR reading, but it is possible the front is still a tad lean and/or the rear a tad rich (as shown on the AFR graph the right hand can is quite a bit leaner than the left can). 5500 to 7500 maybe a bit rich on the left can, not sure whether to touch it though, and below 5500rpm quite lean.

Paul (the dyno operator) suggests the 3500-5000 lean bit could be the slides opening slowly - probably too much tension on the spring (which are OEM Honda) and he also suggests going down to a 45 pilot and tweaking with the screws. He is telling me it has a slight surge at cruise (which I felt but it was barely noticeable), and he is saying the hangup when blipping the throttle could also be a rich thing not necessarily a lean issue.

*BUT* - he also said it rides beautifully, has a beautiful curve, even watching the tacho go up during the dyno pull, no hesitant spots, just a smooth rise to the limiter. So I can leave it the hell alone, or speed up the slides, go a smaller pilot and retune the screws. Mmmmm, carbs off 1 more time..... or buy something non carby like a rear hugger. Tough call!!!
Last edited by Twitchy on Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
06 VTR1000F; bits by Jack Flash, Erik Marquez & Jamie Daugherty. SP/954 front and SP2 rear in the works.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638
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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy »

Just an update, with the onset of the wetter time of the year, time for some bigger jobs. First is the install of the Factory Pro Shift Star. This job is done but I have left the right side cover off for the moment while I play with an STM billet clutch slave cylinder from a 2006 CBR1000RR I was given. I can report this slave cylinder does bolt up, but requires a spacer to be made up to get the clutch to move. The spacer I made up is about 8mm long, brass and works well. I measured the movement at the clutch pressure plate to check the difference, with the clicker on '6' (furthest from bar) the STM slave throws about 2.8mm vs. about 2.3mm for the factory. At clicker position '1' (closest to bar) the STM was about 1.7mm vs. about 1.1mm for the factory unit. However, the pull at the lever is considerably harder. The guy I got it off took it off because it was too hard, and I am inclined to agree with him. Around town stop start traffic, this slave will be a problem. I have left it plumbed in for the moment because I have ZX-14 master cylinders to go on, and I thought I would see how the pull is with the radial m/c. If I stick with the STM slave I will make up a better spacer as I am concerned the brass will yield a bit of its length as it is operating between steel at each end.

On the topic of master cylinders, I have cleaned and rebuilt the ZX-14 m/cs with new piston/seal kit, new bleed nipple and rubber covers, new reservoirs and CRG RC2 levers. Just waiting on some clear Tygon tubing before bolting those up (hopefully this week). I have also now cleaned and rebuilt my SP2 calipers. Refurbished the pistons, new seals, new bolts, new bleed nipple and cover. I will hold off on installing these until I finish the clutch/shift star job.

Here is a comparo of the OEM and Factory Pro shifting mechanism;
Image
Image

And some shiny calipers with the ZX-14 m/cs in the top right corner;
Image
Image

Image
Last edited by Twitchy on Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
06 VTR1000F; bits by Jack Flash, Erik Marquez & Jamie Daugherty. SP/954 front and SP2 rear in the works.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638
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VTRDark
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by VTRDark »

G'day wow I have just read the compete thread from start to finish. Bloody hell mate you have certainly been through it. Massive learning curve and you must know the bike very well now. It gets laborious after while taking carbs apart. You've done well. :clap: :clap:

I posted in your other thread on clunk theory but your username didn't click with me. If I was you I would leave the carbs well alone now. Don't go making any major changes to them. If go changing other things like adding an advancer you will end up back in there LOL It's addictive, once one starts you can find yourself always tweaking things here and there. Then when the weather changes you may end up tweaking the mixture again.
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tony.mon
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by tony.mon »

The m/c's are crying out for a Rizoma pot....
Any feedback on the shiftStar?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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sirch345
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by sirch345 »

Thanks for posting up the differences between the standard, and Factory Pro shift mechanisms :thumbup:

Your calipers are looking very clean, servicing them well worth doing,

Chris.
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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy »

Apologies for the absence. Thanks for the comments Carl, Tony & Sirch. I think between you 3 and 8541 Hawk, your extensive postings through many threads across both here & SH, would have supplied the most info that I have followed through the Great Carb Debacle of 2015!

The carbs are so much better now but I wonder whether to block 1 hole in the slides, leaving 1 hole only. As shown on the last dyno sheet, it goes lean between 3500-5000, and the dyno dude suggested the slides were opening too slow. In my mind blocking 1 hole will mean it will require less engine vacuum to lift against the spring. Ideas appreciated.

Anyway, as for the new fandangled shift thingy, I have yet to test it. I am also installing (fighting) Convertibars, along with an STM clutch slave cylinder I was given. As I am trying to get the bars setup in the shed as close as possible, which means leaving the clutch & brake lines loose at the bar ends while positioning. Now I want to get the clutch all bled up and check the throw of the new slave before I put the right side cover back on. On top of that, the HEL lines I bought 4 months ago, and only now getting around to fitting are waaaaay too long. The clutch line curves from the master, back through to the steering head bracket, I have curved it down to the bottom of the radiator, back up to the frame, along to the bracket and down to the slave. I asked for +2" front brake & clutch with standard rear brake. I reckon the clutch line is 4" longer than stock, the front brake lines might be ok, the rear brake is probably an inch or so too long. The next step is to side by side compare the lines, and send them back to get shortened. Bloody bugger.
06 VTR1000F; bits by Jack Flash, Erik Marquez & Jamie Daugherty. SP/954 front and SP2 rear in the works.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638
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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy »

As for The Battle of the Bars, it all started due to my height. I want the levers further down, further than the axial m/c allows. This led to the Convertibars. But due to the extra height, the clutch reservoir fouls inside the fairing. So that brings on a radial setup, where I can crank the levers down as I am not restricted by the reservoir angle, or reservoir cup fouling anything. Then the switch block fouls the fairing because of the extra height of the bars. So I employ the flexibility of the Convertibars, having the bars set back, the bars hit the tank well before the stops. Having the bars out to the sides, the switch block hits the fairing. Having the bars sit right forward, the lever hits the speedo surround. I have spent (wasted) so much time trying many different positions & combinations, that I was ready to burn the f@^king things. I have not been in the shed for nearly a week, that s how bad I don't want to look at my bike. Worse than the Great Carb Debacle of 2015.

So, the plan now is to machine the Convertibar clamp down. The clamp, which they call the Cyclops clamp, is 40mm thick/high. I havent measured the factory clipon clamp, but it is nowhere near 40mm. I am going to skim down a piece of bar or pipe to 41mm, clamp the Cyclops clamp to that, and gently skim it down, 6mm at each side, giving me 28mm thickness/height. So when the clamp is on the fork, the bar will sit lower down, giving me the clearance I need to mount everything up. Annoyed I have to resort to such measures on a 'bolt on' item that cost me nearly $600, but seems to be necessary. I will post up some pics when it is done.
06 VTR1000F; bits by Jack Flash, Erik Marquez & Jamie Daugherty. SP/954 front and SP2 rear in the works.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638
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sirch345
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by sirch345 »

It's good to hear how you are getting on, even if not like you had hoped. Those bars are certainly giving you some grieve with the clearance issues, although with your determination I'm sure you'll get them to work for you in the end.
Sometimes giving jobs when they are not going to plan a break like you did is a good idea.

Good luck with them, and thanks for the update,

Chris.
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VTRDark
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by VTRDark »

Nothing wrong with being a bit on the lean side to begin with. More power, better fuel consumption. It's a good thing to start off slightly on the lean side and get slightly richer toward the end where the fuel helps lubricate the cylinders more. You have a nice smooth torque curve there.
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Twitchy
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by Twitchy »

Just to give an update, finally got everything sorted and installed, relocated coolant bottle. Started bike last Sunday for the first time in way too long, and someone has thrown a bag of rocks in there. Well that's what it sounds like. And I 'll bet my left nut its the sub gear. I did tension it up when installing the clutch basket, and I did wonder at the time if I should go one tooth further. So now I know.

So I need to dump the oil, dump the coolant, get the right side cover off hopefully without fV<king the gasket, get the clutch off again and do it all again. Bloody bugger. I might get to ride this thing again one day....
06 VTR1000F; bits by Jack Flash, Erik Marquez & Jamie Daugherty. SP/954 front and SP2 rear in the works.
Build thread; http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638
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agentpineapple
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by agentpineapple »

Twitchy wrote:Just to give an update, finally got everything sorted and installed, relocated coolant bottle. Started bike last Sunday for the first time in way too long, and someone has thrown a bag of rocks in there. Well that's what it sounds like. And I 'll bet my left nut its the sub gear. I did tension it up when installing the clutch basket, and I did wonder at the time if I should go one tooth further. So now I know.

So I need to dump the oil, dump the coolant, get the right side cover off hopefully without fV<king the gasket, get the clutch off again and do it all again. Bloody bugger. I might get to ride this thing again one day....
that's crap news fella, always a bastid to have to go back over jobs again, I hope you get it sorted dude.
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sirch345
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Re: VTR Down Under

Post by sirch345 »

It shouldn't take you so long this time, well proving the gasket stays in one piece of course.

Take and post up some photo's if you think about it, it could be helpful for others.

Good luck with it,

Chris.
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