Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Just post charts and set up details.
Post Reply
User avatar
8541Hawk
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:21 am
Location: Bosque Farms, NM

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by 8541Hawk »

As they were supposed to get the HRC map from my unit but the deal fell through, I don't believe they have anything but the stock map.
They call me "Mr. Flat Earther"
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

Thanks for info Mike, good to know.
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

got very quick reply from Ignitech confirming that they didn´t have HRC in hands. But I got some map roughly copying stock unit ...
MK_WF
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:02 pm
Location: Wolfenbuettel/Germany
Contact:

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF »

Seems they had their annual "quick reply day" - got the same info that they only have this map.

As I tackled my bike with a strobe today, I think I found a pretty serious issue with the supplied Ignitech dataset
But first I need a few people to confirm the basic assumption.

Question: On the flywheel there is the F marking supposed to indicate the ignition advance at idle. In my German Bucheli manual they state it should be at 15 deg BTDC (supposedly front cylinder).

If that is true, then the Ignitech file contains a false base advance and thus false "absolute" values for the advance table.
Fortunately the relative values are somewhat in the ballpark (i.e. if base advance is 5 and map value is 10 it means "fire 5 deg before base advance")

The TCI fires at "base advance" when you're below the first rpm value in the table. (i.e. when the appropriate tooth is at the pick-up). You may also call this position the physical base advance.
This is a "hardcoded" behaviour and thus independent from the entered value for base advance - it only comes into place when you calculate the advance above that first rpm.
If you want to test if the entered base advance is "right", then you need to set a flat curve at 15 deg (because that's the F mark) and strobe the mark with the engine running above first rpm (or simply lower first rpm below idle rpm). In that case the entered base advance is used and if everything is right the F mark should match.
In my bike it only did when entering 16 deg as the base advance.

Now if you have a dataset with base advance 5 and a filled map - what do you need to change if the base advance changes to 16 ?
I already mentioned if base advance is 5 and map value is 10 it means "fire 5 deg before base advance".
As a consequence for the "real" base advance being 16 deg ALL the values in the map I posted would need to be increased about 11 deg which means the real absolute range is 16 to 50 (!) deg and thus MUCH more than the stock values ...

I verified that by changing base advance to 16 deg, altering all map values about 11 deg and checking idle advance with the strobe.
It's idling near the F mark which is what I expected.

So again: Is the F marking REALLY at 15 deg ? Did someone ever measured that or has other independent sources to confirm or deny ?
Bye
Martin
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

I need to take deeper look tomorrow, but manual says it
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

my understanding is, that values in the table show additional advance to base advance, and base advance you cannot change by software. So if there is 5 at 1500, total advance is 20, and everything bellow 1500 rpm is 15 (base advance). If you read base advance at idle, it would be the same for whatever you put into the table.

This is only my opinion which should be confirmed or not, but "base advance" set in ignitech software has no real usage, ignition modul takes physical base advance and add values from map from specified point (1500 rpm in this case). Definitely I would´t try to change it by 11, if it works good now, seems to me a bit risky.
Maybe this is the real question for ignitech guys :-)

I will try to read my unit today, yesterday I bought usb to serial adapter with FTDI chip, that should work.

*note this is my first attempt to understand ignition, I can be totally wrong
User avatar
8541Hawk
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:21 am
Location: Bosque Farms, NM

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by 8541Hawk »

I can not help with the actual map but what I can tell you about the HRC unit is that it advances the timing at lower RPMs and then retards the timing in the higher RPM range (as compared to the stock map)
They call me "Mr. Flat Earther"
MK_WF
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:02 pm
Location: Wolfenbuettel/Germany
Contact:

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF »

Stephan wrote: *note this is my first attempt to understand ignition, I can be totally wrong
I regret to agree that you are.

In a nutshell: you have the "physical" base advance and a corresponding value in the software. The first one is a constant as it's mechanically fixed, the second one needs to be dialed in to match the mechanical value.
You do that by testing with a strobe (as described above).

If they don't match your table does not contain values with Degree BTDC. That's the case with a base advance of 5 deg.

I'll give you an example that corresponds with strobing the flywheel mark:
The physical mark is at 15 deg BTDC and my measured base advance is 16 deg.

With the Ignitech base advance of 5 deg:
- below first rpm ignition fires at physical base advance = mark has a slight mismatch because it's firing at 16 deg.
- above first rpm the entered base advance of 5 deg comes into play. 5 deg in the idle bin of the table means "fire at physical base advance" because both are set to 5 Deg BTDC.
As a result the ignition fires at 16 deg
- If the bin would have 10, then it mens "fire 5 deg before physical advance"; i.e. it's firing at 21 deg.
- As you see the table values do not represent values in deg BTDC

Now what happens if you correct the base advance value to 16 deg and add 11 deg to all table bins:
- below first rpm nothing happens as no calculation takes place. The ignition fires at physical base advance = 16 deg BTDC
- above first rpm the entered base advance of 16 deg comes into play. 16 deg (former 5 + 11) in the idle bin of the table still means "fire at physical base advance" because both are set to 16 Deg BTDC.
- the example value of 10 would have been correctef to 21 deg BTDC. That means fire 5 deg before physical base advance which is 21 deg BTDC.
- got the idea? Haven't changed the position where to fire, but now all table values are really degrees BTDC.

I have done a corrected .ign file and had a testride today.
Also lowered the insane 50 deg values to max. 42. I added a ditch in the 7500-8500 region as I was advised on the German Megasquirt forum by one guy having done an EFI'd VTR.
The Megasquirt manual also gives some hints:
http://www.megamanual.com/begintuning.htm#spark

The result:
Felt ok, no losses to feel and much more realistic advance values now!
(I confess that I was expecting more reaction on changing advance values, maybe a dyno is really required to see the difference)

I've already included an increased advance at lower rpm, I need to try the lower advance at higher rpm.
Bye
Martin
MK_WF
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:02 pm
Location: Wolfenbuettel/Germany
Contact:

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF »

Stephan wrote:my understanding is, that values in the table show additional advance to base advance, and base advance you cannot change by software. So if there is 5 at 1500, total advance is 20, and everything bellow 1500 rpm is 15 (base advance).
BTW : In your example you'd need a map value of 10 to have a "total" of 15 deg.
In that case using a strobe should give you an exactly matching flywheel mark.
If my method is right, you should see an angle of 21 deg, i.e. a non matching "F" mark.
Let me know what you found :-)

A last tip:
One method to be above the first rpm is to change the value from 1500 to let's say 800.
The other one is to have a second person operating the throttle and holding constant high rpm. That'd be the preferred method as the advance at idle is somewhat jerky.
Bye
Martin
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

thanks for explanation, I see this topic is currently exceeding my capability :-)

Today I found that I need to install driver on my work ntb and have no rights. Tomorrow I will take bike at work, admin install the driver, and I hope I will get required data during the day.
User avatar
8541Hawk
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:21 am
Location: Bosque Farms, NM

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by 8541Hawk »

Another thing I can add is that the Ingitech map is correct.
The way the info was obtained was a stock ECU was plugged into their set up and that is the map that was programmed with.

Of course it is a '98-'00 map and if you have a latter ECU it will have a different map as Honda added some advance down low to those boxes (this is why the FP advancers only work with early model bikes)
They call me "Mr. Flat Earther"
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

Note I am running 11.3 CR pistons, but don´t think it will does much difference. I had to start the engine to get it work. I will talk more about it with him to see if there is some room for improvement, as 3-4k is not the best, the rest is running great. But this have to be done after pilot screw settings optimization through AFR, to be sure problem is not only there ...

This is Ignitech map for VTR1000F
Image

This is my current map
Image
MK_WF
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:02 pm
Location: Wolfenbuettel/Germany
Contact:

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF »

Here's what I came up with:
As Stepans file also contains the base advance error and thus the map does not contain "deg BTDC" values I corrected all files and created a new draft that has "healthier" values.

Stepan vs. Ignitech (aka stock VTR):
Image

MK vs. Stepan:
Image

I test-rode the above map and it didn't feel too bad. No losses to feel in the top rpm range, maybe a bit rough at very low rev and 100% throttle.
It needs refining, but with the lower values I'm on the right way and hopefully I'll find some dyno time to optimize the map to fit my engine.


BTW: Ignitech still did not answer my mail asking how they measured the base advance and if it'd be possible that their 5 deg value is off.
Bye
Martin
User avatar
Stephan
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Prague, Czech

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan »

Not sure if suggested values aren't too high, because we don't know original factory values, thus we are not sure if there is mistake from ignitech or not. Definitely I will pay attention to it.
I just add that dynoman tested more values, and these in map should be in optimal range, as small changes around these values didn't result in change of power - talking about 100% tps.

I will try to write to ignitech again.
User avatar
8541Hawk
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:21 am
Location: Bosque Farms, NM

Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by 8541Hawk »

MK_WF wrote: BTW: Ignitech still did not answer my mail asking how they measured the base advance and if it'd be possible that their 5 deg value is off.
I guess you missed it but the way they got the values that are supplied is that they plugged a '98-'00 Stock ECU into their gear and that is the map that the unit contained.
So if the map is wrong, then the error came from Honda.

Also. as I stated, their are 2 different "stock" maps also depending on the year. Ingitech is the early map.
They call me "Mr. Flat Earther"
Post Reply