shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

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vtrnz
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shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by vtrnz »

hi guys, newbie on the site, (think i messed up on the welcome inn seeking info. re carbs. apols ...think i'll put that hold now anyways :)

ive just checked my valve clearances and need to make some adjustments. cant seem to find specific reference to removing the camshafts in the wokshop knowledge.

ive got the haynes, but also read on here about how sometimes it's not that useful..ie tells you to do stuff you dont need to and so on..and it does make my head go fuzzy when i read re taking out camshafts.

has anyone done it recently? got any tips...do'd donts etc? do i need to remove radiators? ive fitted (a while ago) mccts....what do i need to be watching for when slackening cc?

does camchain actually come off/out?

any advice greatly appreciated. thanks for your time, jase in nz

vtr 03
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sirch345
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by sirch345 »

First off, which procedure are you using for setting up the valve timing :?:

Removing or unbolting the radiator and leaving it hang on the hoses allows to you check the valve timing easier, you can see the marks on the cam sprockets better,

Chris.
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VTRDark
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by VTRDark »

See the MCCT thread in the link below which will not only tell you how to time the bike but also shows lots of pictures. That would be the bulk of the job done. All you have left then is measuring gaps, removing cams and replacing shims, measuring again and then moving onto the next cylinder. :roll:

Get your head around the timing before you do anything else.



Here's some relevant threads as follows:

Valve clearances, please hold my hand....

Shim replacement - trying to keep it simple

Valve Clearances

That should give you some reading to do. :wink:

Oh and welcome to the forum. :beer:

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Cadbury64
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by Cadbury64 »

Hi Jason, how are you getting on with this?

I re-shimmed the rear intake valves recently, and bought a number of shims (Torpedo7 via Trademe). If you need any specific size let me know, likewise if you have any specific questions sing out. As you may have read, I did things a little differently and secured the cam sprocket to the chain and kept a little tension on the chain to keep the timing to the crank. I then just unbolted the cam from the sprocket and slid it clear, so the sprocket and chain all stay timed.

Regards
Terry
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vtrnz
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by vtrnz »

Hi terry thanks. yes i did come across your write-up etc. and did seem to make sense. the honda service manual i have also says to approach things this way.

and i was going to too. then i changed my mind as i thought id attempt to do both cams at once and so would need to turn rear head round to tdc.

then once id started i felt less happy about that idea and decided to do just front, then do rear. long way round i know. but i felt happier about that.

yep, got shims from trade me...on special right now at 5bucks a set fyi !!

my main query really, is what happens down in the crank case with the t-chain? is there a guide that keeps it in place-ish? ive read it can get jammed up if not under tension etc which is why i get puzzled when you read it's ok to support it with a piece of wire/coat hanger across the head. surely without the wheels in place the sag would allow the chain to un-hook itself from bottom crank??
ive got mine suspended up near the frame, tied up.
i wonder how easy is it for chain to come off bot. crank, and how easy to get back on if it does come off??!

apart from, at this stage will look at putting new shims in this w.end. thanks for offer of yours. likewise from me if you need to do the front.

cheers jason
vtrnz
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by vtrnz »

many thanks Chris and Carl.

having looked on this site so many times and seen the 'roaving cyber-eye' it's weird to see it in my own account!! cheers!

ive gone in as i wrote to Terry. and yes removed radiator to ease things up nicely. so yes, currently just working on front cyl.
intakes at lower limit, and exhausts at .305.......would you be thinking to
do the exhausts at that reading too, or is that quite acceptable considering mark is .31 ?

and like i said to Terry, i feel so hassled about the chain on the bottom crank....ie does it drop off/unhook/detach easy? is there a guide down there? is it easy enough to re-hang if it does come off?
am i giving it too much thought?!!!

been reading about the pair system too and removal. has anyone just blocked off/bunged up the original cast units on the covers? i know not as stylish and tidy as the blanking plates, but would that suffice?
any thoughts?

anyway, thanks again for your time, considerations and welcome.
cheers, jason.
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8541Hawk
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by 8541Hawk »

vtrnz wrote:
and like i said to Terry, i feel so hassled about the chain on the bottom crank....ie does it drop off/unhook/detach easy? is there a guide down there? is it easy enough to re-hang if it does come off?
am i giving it too much thought?!!!

been reading about the pair system too and removal. has anyone just blocked off/bunged up the original cast units on the covers? i know not as stylish and tidy as the blanking plates, but would that suffice?
any thoughts?

anyway, thanks again for your time, considerations and welcome.
cheers, jason.
There is no need to worry about the timing chain.
When doing the valve adjustment on mine, I just use the coat hanger method with no worries.
When I pulled the heads off the bike I just dropped the chains down the tunnels until the heads where back on, then pulled the chain up and finished putting it all back together.
Again, no issues and no worries.

As for the pair plates, once you flip the reeds over you can just put caps on the stock covers, no issues.
Any caps will do as there is nothing going on anymore so I ran standard vacuum caps before I made my block off plates.
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VTRDark
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by VTRDark »

Think of a bicycle sprockets when the chain comes off and one carry s on peddling. Yeh the chain will come off the crank a little but if you think about the sagging links down there where one has taken it off the cam sprocket and is all loose. This bundles up down the bottom and when someone goes to turn the crank makes things worse. You will have no issues with the chain coming right off, it literally just jams in the tunnel unless it's pulled taught beforehand.

When putting the chain back around the cam sprockets after cam removal always pull it taught on the opposite side to the tensioner (cct) as this is where the slack is taken up. So start with the cam on that side, pull the chain taught and around the sprocket, then put the cam in on the tensioner side where the slack is now.

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vtrnz
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by vtrnz »

thanks hawk,

just to clarify, ive flipped the reeds and can see it renders the reed-valve non functioning.

do i need to actually cap/block/bung the original REEDCOVER that then bolts to the valve cover ? the little intake/outlet tube/pipe that the original hose would normally connect to?

done my shims. all good now. thanks for info /vote of confidence.

had lucky escape when re-fitting the cc guide short stubby bolt...got close to feeling snug and it went kinda soft. took it out to check threads and coat with sealant hoping on 2nd re-fit would
just tighten to snug. on the way in the bolt just sheared off!!!! arsholsnbroomstix!!
took cam cover off and set in vice. had poke around with watchmakers screwdriver and discover to my relief there was movement. mil by mil, just twisting n jabbing managed to turn sheared off bolt shaft
out!!! ''halleluyyah'' the chorus girls sang!! must've been a shite bolt
found a wee bolt in my miniscule collection, checked there was still good bite in the cam cover, and put everthing back!
great start to friday night!
thanks again, jason.
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8541Hawk
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by 8541Hawk »

vtrnz wrote:thanks hawk,

just to clarify, ive flipped the reeds and can see it renders the reed-valve non functioning.

do i need to actually cap/block/bung the original REEDCOVER that then bolts to the valve cover ? the little intake/outlet tube/pipe that the original hose would normally connect to?
While there is no actual need to plug the hose nipples on the stock covers once the reeds are flipped it does make things look cleaner and also keeps road grime from collecting inside the cover.
Here in the US,as all years had the PAIR system here, it was common to just run a rubber or PVC vacuum cap on that fitting if not running block off plates.

In short all you are doing is keeping dirt out so any plug will do or no plug will not really hurt anything. it's up to you. :thumbup:
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Cadbury64
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by Cadbury64 »

Glad to hear that everything came together well for you vtrnz.

Just to clarify, I never pulled the sprockets out from the chains, so there was little slack in the chain that could lead to the chain unhooking off the crank sprocket. I cable tied the sprockets to the chain, tied the intake sprocket to the back of the airbox, then pulled just the camshafts out. A bit slower but no-one pays me for my time, and any time tinkering with bikes adds years to your life! My way ensured I could not lose the timing between cams and crank.

My one scary moment came when I forgot to remove one cable tie on the chain/sprocket and rotated the crank by hand. There was a loud pinging sound, followed by an intense "oh crap" feeling, then some frantic peering down into the bowels to see where it went, followed by great relief when the item was located some distance away on the floor...

I can also recommend the motorcycle stands that Torpedo7 sell, I have a front head stand and rear swingarm stand, they are fantastic on the VTR and SO cheap.

One last comment (and it may be obvious already) but don't forget to plug the PAIR outlet from the airbox.
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VTRDark
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by VTRDark »

@vtrnz I dont know if you have seen the following thread nut it may come in useful. :thumbup:

PAIR System removal

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vtrnz
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by vtrnz »

fellas.... thnaks once again, for replies and pointers.

Carl, it's 'awesome' as they say here in nz all too often, that after over 17 thousand posts you can still be arsed to help out folk youve never met, or may never meet.
good on ya mate. Dude.

So ive got him all back together and fired him up. turned it over a few times with no choke, just as a last check for untward noises....but sounded all good.
pulled the choke and he just fired up. let him settle a touch...then a few gentle blips....gradually, as i start to relax..(ie thank f==k for that, it works) start to notice it sounds a little differnt...maybe.
not the cans, but down by the heads, or primarily the front one. a mild sss or hhhssss...ive removed the pair system, made some blanking plates and fitted and capped the necessary.
have i missed something ?? would it sound differnt without all that crap there? ie the cast housing over the reeds, the hoses...etc must go some way towards a tiny amount of noise reduction?

did the rad re-fill...top up etc...(read carls post) and seem to have got more in the reservoir tank than i used to....is that just too much in the system? over zealous topping up ??
then initially, once it had warmed up, some farting and back firing on half-ish open throttle eg 4-5k as if cold type thing..just occasional...no significant 'hanging' once throttle closed and on way down to settle on about 1200.
on the clock the bike's done 55k (kms) ive had it since 48k last november...so not too long. but in that time the bike's been spot on....apart from that cough bout 2.5k idling thru town.
ive had at look at the tps, albeit when carbs were back on, but managed to get readings of around 5hundy....so figured it'd been dealt to?
then got it right warm, engage fan, nothing untward really , cept that noise as mentioned above and occasional backfire ?
any thoughts? words of comfort?
cheers, jason
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Cadbury64
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by Cadbury64 »

Jason I'm guessing you had the carbs off for the recent surgery. The symptoms (noise, backfire) sound like an intake leak to me. Check the carb clamps are tight, then I'd check that the vacuum take off for the fuel petcock is properly sealed (on back cylinder intake, left side), and check whether the front cylinder vacuum fitting for carb balancing is sealed up as it should be.

Or....you could just be a bit paranoid that you've messed something up, and it actually sounds just the way it used to.
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VTRDark
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Re: shim replacement/removing camshafts help!

Post by VTRDark »

IIRC you have changed the ccts out for manuals haven't you. So there will be a slight different tone to the engine from before. I would not worry about any new rattly tatting noises right now unless it's drastically bad, as you have not really warmed the bike up to running temp yet by taking it for a good thrashing.

Calling it... a him don't sound right to me unless you wear a dress :lol: If anything it should be a she or maybe it's something else :lol: :lol:

As has been said check the carbs are seated correctly. It's easy to not get them seated quite fully and/or not tighten the clamps enough. Did you see the little hole in the plastic cowl above the right rad in the v of the frame. That's for your screwdriver blade to go through. Easier access to the front clamp. :wink: When you pushed the carbs back into place, did you feel them seat. You should feel a solid kinda thud as they hit the top of the inlets. They can be tricky as they are at an angle and you have to kinda get the front in first a little bit and then push down on the rear into the rubber. A little smear of grease around the inside of the inlet rubbers helps and then push down and wiggle into place.

Did you get all the airbox hoses back on. In particular the front left crankcase breather in the corner. And don't worry about your coolant being a little high as it will come out the overflow. Keep an eye on it though and top up as needs be. Have you heard the fan kick in yet. It should kick in just above the half way mark on the temp gauge.

:thumbup:

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