Kreiger, APE, Bazza and Ade Whitmarsh's CCT's

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tony.mon
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Kreiger, APE, Bazza and Ade Whitmarsh's CCT's

Post by tony.mon » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:46 pm

I thought I would post a review of Kreiger CCT's, compared to APE and Bazza's conversions.

Just today I fitted a pair of Kreiger CCT's on a forum member's bike.

As Rad_Draven has found, the shorter of the two supplied fits the rear.
Sadly, the longer front one STILL makes it difficult to get to with spanners, for initial setting and adjustment purposes, due to the position of the coolant pipe.

Why not just machine in a boss to raise the locknut above the pipe?

Anyway, they seem decently made, come with gaskets, and look good. They are supplied with two countersunk hex head machine screws instead of re-using the surface-mounted cap head fitted as standard, and the internal end of the main adjusting bolt have been ground smooth and finished to a rounded profile.

There's a machined groove around the external face under the locknut which takes a small o-ring, fitted when supplied, which will hopefully seal it against oil leaks and also help to prevent locknuts loosening.

Shame the dome head top nut is held in place with a slim locknut beneath it, though, as it's just one more thing that can vibrate loose.


APE are supplied red anodised, which I have to be honest, doesn't look good in my opinion. It's a bit Eighties. You are, of course, entitled to disagree.

Well made, well finished, and supplied with hex cap heads Unfortunately the cap head then obscures the locknut, so getting a spanner on the locknut isn't easy
Again, all it would take is a boss of at least cap head height on the external face.

The ones I have seen have NOT had gaskets included; you have to buy them separately if you intend to use any.

The interior end, which sits against the tensioner blade, has been ground to remove the original hex facets, and is round in circumference but left flat at the end, rather than profiled or rounded off To be fair, I doubt if this affects the tensioning at all.

There's an o-ring fitted, (and I'm going from memory here- they may have now changed) but no recess groove for it to sit in, which means that it is simply crushed under the locknut.
I doubt that it will remain intact enough to re-seal properly after a few adjustments.



For this reason, on both the APE and Kreiger ones, I would use a smear of silicon sealer on the thread and beneath the locknut- if not needed, it can't hurt- belt and braces.


Bazza conversions- converted from standard CCT's, drilled out, tapped, and with a long stainless steel bolt fitted.
They most closely resemble the standard fitments, for those who want a standard-looking bike, but aren't as easy on the eye as the other two.
Yes, they look standard, but then the standard one isn't very attractive, in my own opinion. (mind you, you can't see the front one....)

There's no fitted o-ring, and so a smear of silicon is essential, but this is completely effective, no leaks once installed.

Best of all, the body of the standard tensioner lifts both the locknut and the adjuster dome nut above that bloody pipe, so they are in plain view, and easily adjusted.

They're also cheaper, by far.

Bazza's solution for fixing the domed end nut, which is to drill through and secure with a rollpin, is better, in my opinion. It won't vibrate loose, and glue can't fail.
I say glue because I have seen a number of other alternatives, where the adjusting nut is simply glued on. Although i haven't personally known the glue to fail, it doesn't seem as permanent a solution as a rollpin.

Bazza leaves plenty of thread on the bolt for adjustment, and so the rear one particularly looks as though there's more thread showing than necessary- again, a cosmetic detail, rather than a fault.

Another possible solution is to fit a stopper in a standard CCT, the spring may still fail but at least the plunger cannot retract far enough to allow the cam chain to jump over sprocket teeth, leading to valve damage, or worse.
This option allows the CCT to retract on the overrun, however I've never personally been informed as to why this is necessary, or why it's useful.
However, it would still mean replacing the cct if the spring fails, and it's for this reason that I recommend that the manuals are fitted.

I've put this together as I am often asked "Which one's best?" and so I have tried to be honest and not over-critical; any of these solutions is infinitely preferable to trusting standard ones.
I'm not knocking any of the solutions available, and certainly wouldn't recommend, for example, changing from one type of manual cct to another- none of them are "better" than others, they're just all different, and it's up to you as to which one you wish to invest in, both money and trust.

Please feel free to add any comments and experiences of your own.

If I could, I'd have a short Kreiger one fitted on the rear, with a Bazza on the front- best of both worlds, in my opinion.
But I'd on the Kreiger I'd remove the dome nut's locking nut and simply drill it to take a roll pin.

UPDATE:
Ade Whitmarsh's manual ones.
Ade's a member on here, and makes some that are similar in style to APE and Kreiger.
Unlike Ape and Kreiger, there is no O-ring beneath the locknut, and so you will get an oil seep on the rear one if you don't use sealant around the thread.
However once again the centre boss on both is short, and makes setting up and adjustment a pain.
The locknut (there are two- a slim one locking the dome nut in place in the outermost end of the bolt, and the one that locks the thread against the mounting boss)- I'm referring to the lower one, locking the bolt in place against the mounting boss here- is a nylock style. This is good, as it's unlikely to vibrate loose. However, it also makes it awkward to install as far as the front one is concerned, as you can't just wind it into position using your fingers, you have to use a spanner. And because the boss is short, the coolant hose gets in the way big-time. The lower locknut is 15mm AF size.

The top locknut, that locks the bolt threaded section to the dome nut, can also present a problem. To lock the top locknut against the dome nut (I'd suggest using a good drop of threadlock on both before tightening) you need a 17mm spanner. The dome nut and locknut are both 17mm.
You can't use a ring spanner or socket on the locknut, as you can't then remove it unless the hex points on both locknut and dome nut line up- which is unlikely. So you need to use an open-ended spanner for the locknut, and a socket or ring spanner for the dome nut.
I don't know about you, but as nothing else on the bike uses 15mm AF size, I had to rummage around in an old toolbox to find something that fitted. I don't like using adjustables, as they can open or stretch, and round hex flats on nuts.

Now all of this sounds like whinging and not having the correct tools for the job- (and that would be a fair point)- but I feel that it would have been better to use a commonly-used size of nut and dome nut- they're available readily enough.
After all, everyone has 14mm spanners- they're used all over the bike.

Bazza's use 13mm nuts and domes- same criticism applies, but it's less of a problem as 1/2 inch AF spanners fit well enough.
5/8" spanners fit a 15mm nut, but the fit is sloppier than a 1/2" spanner on a 13mm one.

Ade, if you can make the boss higher on the front one, so that the locknut can be seen above the coolant hose, machine a groove for an O-ring under the lower locknut base on both, and use 14mm nuts throughout, it would be a great improvement.
Last edited by tony.mon on Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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macphray
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by macphray » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:00 pm

Thankyou Tony for this thread it is good to know that they are all good CCTs ,It makes it easier for us to make a informed choice as to what ones we
want to fit.good work thanks mate. :thumbup:

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Wicky
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by Wicky » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:18 pm

Good stuff and good design idea for improving the one front - Just to add APEs come (or did on mine) with a Nylock* nut as the locking nut, and came with gaskets from US Store in Florida. (* A pain to make fine tuning adjustment without 3 hands)

http://ape-store.com/shopsite/page4.html edited - plus it includes the newer Ape 'Pro' type of mcct

Image
Image

Installed Krieger CCTs on another bike and just as good if not better (+ better value) than APEs.

http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

(European Krieger stockist) http://www.exhausist.com - contact Rob de Hoo in Holland.

Image
Last edited by Wicky on Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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benny hedges
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by benny hedges » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:52 pm

i had APE's on mine but swapped them for a set of tray (rideronastorm) cct's for a few reasons.

A. i didnt like the colour of the APES (mine were blue) compared to the shiny SS finish on Tray's

B. shortly after fitting, the rear APE tensioner unwound on me TWICE, came very close to wrecking the motor, which would have been most annoying, as i bought the APEs to prevent this happening and they weren't cheap.
(twice the price of all the others iirc)
mine came with gaskets too.

C. build quality.
rideronastorms ccts were precision turned, very much like the ones from krieger and phil 'the pont' (who still sells these on ebay) - with SS bolts.
ROAS cct's had 2 locknuts fitted at my request - and no rubber o ring, which tbh is a waste of time.

whatever option you choose, it's very important to use a semi permanent threadlock on the adjuster bolt thread, to prevent oil loss and also to stop it vibrating loose and unwinding on you when you least expect it!

top work from all the guys who are doing these - you've helped keep many a vtr on the road. :beer: :beer: :beer:
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bazza696
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by bazza696 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:23 pm

Wicky wrote:Good stuff and good design idea for improving the one front - Just to add APEs come (or did on mine) with a Nylock* nut as the locking nut, and came with gaskets from US Store in Florida. (* A pain to make fine tuning adjustment without 3 hands)

http://www.overstockpartsgalore.com/

Image

Installed Krieger CCTs on another bike and just as good if not better (+ better value) than APEs.

http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

Image
i agree when i fitted jonesy's APE the lock nut was a nyloc nut which was a bit of a cow to lock the cct correctly, especially on the left hand side where the cct is behind the thermostat housing, you need to get a spanner or socket on the end nut to stop the stud from turning whist setting the lock nut.
Image

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Duffy1964
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by Duffy1964 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 pm

Thanks for fitting the Kreiger CCT's on Saturday for me Tony, Like the impartial reveiw too and personally prefer the look of the Kreiger over the APE.
At least I have the knowledge of how to fit them now and totally agree on your "Finger Tight" adjustment theory.
Head gaskets now orderd so next lesson for me is the Cylinder Head removal :lol:

Thanks again, it was nice to have it all explained and be there to see for myself.
Top Bloke :thumbup:
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Yellow 1997 Storm R.I.P. Orange 2000 Streetfighter Project (Rufus), Black 2006 Fazer FZ6, Blue 2005 Sherco Trials 290 & 1959 BSA D7 175cc Bantam Trials Project

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agentpineapple
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by agentpineapple » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:35 am

nice wright up tony, very informative, my bike came with ape red cct's and i honestly don't mind the look of them, they look better the the standard ones, and now it doesn't matter because the rear one is hidden behind the spondon ears :lol:
it will be an absolute b-stard to adjust tho :(
and duffy it sounds like your mr mon expieriance was a painless one, were you impressed with tony's chicken coup..... :lol: (i was)
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Duffy1964
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by Duffy1964 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:59 pm

Hi Marty, yep gotta say it was very informative, just a shame Tony found my head gasket had gone, But gaskets arived today so gonna see Tony & the Chicks soon :lol: :lol: :lol:
Duffy1964
Yellow 1997 Storm R.I.P. Orange 2000 Streetfighter Project (Rufus), Black 2006 Fazer FZ6, Blue 2005 Sherco Trials 290 & 1959 BSA D7 175cc Bantam Trials Project

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chric
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by chric » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:40 pm

got bazzas cant fault them now I have sealed them up.Where a doddle to fit as well.
Just paid some one :lol:
Ill never be a sell out storm forever

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BigD
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by BigD » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:20 pm

Where are you guys ordering the Krieger ones from? They're on ebay for $60 plus shipping, I assume these are from Mark at Krieger and the correct ones for UK Firestorm.

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Wicky
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by Wicky » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:48 pm

Yup he's a member here, you can order them from him directly.
BigD wrote:Where are you guys ordering the Krieger ones from? They're on ebay for $60 plus shipping, I assume these are from Mark at Krieger and the correct ones for UK Firestorm.
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by Boubepo » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:34 am

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the information, it's very helpful.

I only joined yesterday but I can already see this is a very well run and friendly/helpful site.

Anyway I'm a bit of an imposture because I don't have a VTR [yet] I'm at the negotiation stage for a black 97 with 15 k
[Should also mention I live in Spain]

I have a few bikes, mostly ILF Honda's and a Speed Triple, I'm 48 and despite never being without a bike since I was 12, I have never owned a V twin, I've always admired the VTR for it's style, good looks, it's uniqueness and sound!

So here I am, on the threshold of VTR ownership and it's reassuring that a site and people like this exist, as despite my love and lifetime with bikes, my mechanical knowledge is basic and my mechanical abilities are somewhere between a 6 year old human and a 50 year old Silver Back Gorilla.

So with the CCT's I understand the potential problem of the standard ones failing and the need to replace them but for the moment I can't get my head around what the finished product looks like? several of you have mentioned some models of CCT's look better than others but how much of this component is on display and how visible is it?

If anyone has a photo or a link, of fitted CCT's I would be really grateful.

Thanks
Bou

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seb421
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by seb421 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:51 am

Best looking ones are the red APE ones the rear can be seen yes

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Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by firestorm996 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:44 am

Mine's come with APE's, after reading this I'm wondering whether to lock wire them to prevent them backing off?
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seb421
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Re: Kreiger, APE and Bazza CCT's

Post by seb421 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:00 am

firestorm996 wrote:Mine's come with APE's, after reading this I'm wondering whether to lock wire them to prevent them backing off?
Thread lock has been fine for me

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